User talk:Stargazer

Welcome to Lotro-Wiki!

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Promotions

Hi Stargazer, you have been promoted to Ninja should make editing easier for you. As you can skip the captcha and your edits will also show right away thanks for your contributions.--Oakheart (talk) 18:27, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi! Thanks! :) --Stargazer (talk) 20:38, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi Stargazer, You are now an Editor. Congrats and thanks for the continuing updates on the stats and North Down project. Eldalleth (talk) 03:43, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Thank you! :) --Stargazer (talk) 17:14, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Hi Stargazer & congratulations, you've been promoted to administrator! Your work on the wiki has not gone unnoticed. Keep up the good work also don't go too crazy with the added tools:) --Oakheart (talk) 22:40, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the confidence and trust! I feel very honoured. I will try my best to live up to it — and also not to misclick and wipe the whole database! LOL =D

Hi Stargazer & congratulations, you've been promoted to bureaucrat! You now have the ability to manage user roles and accounts. Please promote new users to ninja if they are a verified human and have posted a few good posts so there edits do not keep going to the moderation.--Oakheart (talk) 15:17, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Congrats, Stargazer! Well deserved! — Zimoon 17:14, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks all! I hope I will be of help to others. :D --Stargazer (talk) 19:32, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Hi Stargazer & congratulations, You have been promoted to our final rank of Director! Thank you for your participation and insight into sensitive matters. Also many thanks for your continued contributions and guidance on the wiki. Oakheart (talk) 22:23, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Thank you! To be entrusted with this is indeed a great honour, and I shall endeavour to do the best I can to uphold it and to always keep the best interests of the wiki at heart! :) --Stargazer (talk) 12:40, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Default values for coordinates

Howdy, I reverted one of your changes to Template:Infobox Instances/doc and wanted to provide a little more clarification:

• Default values of 0.0N, 0.0E would not be desirable for NS, EW because that point doesn't appear on all maps. With such a default value, the result would be an "Invalid Coordinates" link, e.g.:

  {{Tooltip Coords|Bree|0.0N|0.0E}} ^{[Coordinate 0.0N is off the map (top is 28.1S)][Coordinate 0.0E is off the map (right edge is 47.8W)]}

• The actual default values for these fields are nothing (empty). So if you leave these fields blank you get a link to a map with no "swirly" icon, e.g.:

  {{Tooltip Coords|Bree||}} ^[Bree]

• The user can put "?" for either value to make a "Coordinates Needed" link. This has the advantage of putting the page into Category:Coordinates Needed.

  {{Tooltip Coords|Bree|?|?}} ^[?, ?]

More info at Template:Tooltip Coords/doc. —Thurallor (talk) 16:40, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi! That wasn't one of MY changes; I only added some further options for the 'size' parameter. That's all (check the diff and you'll see). :)

I have no idea who messed with those coordinate values I'm afraid, so you'd have to delve deeper into the revision history to find that. :P

I do appreciate you taking the time to provide additional info though! That is always nice. =)

--Stargazer (talk) 17:06, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

EDIT: uhm, it appears that what you're referring to WAS in fact changed by my edit – even though I didn't even touch that bit at all! It must've happened automatically on saving, or some such. Very strange. o.O

Good that you caught that and corrected it! I assure you it was completely unintentional to alter that part of it. :O

Thanks!

--Stargazer (talk) 17:10, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

That is odd. Maybe you accidentally edited the May 2, 2020 revision instead of the latest revision? —Thurallor (talk) 17:49, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

It's possible, I suppose. But I don't think I did!? :S

Anyway, it should (hopefully?) all be sorted out now, I think. Could you maybe please have a look through it and check that everything is as it should, and nothing has broken elsewhere either? That would be lovely. :)

Looks good to me! —Thurallor (talk) 20:36, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Oh, and is there a way to transfer this entire topic and text over to my 'main' user talk page (as opposed to having this unrelated stuff here on this page for my project I mean), somehow? If so, could you do that as well? I don't know how to do it, as I'm pretty new at this. Cheers! =)

--Stargazer (talk) 18:03, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Done, sorry about that. (There is no secret way, just the obvious way.) —Thurallor (talk) 20:36, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Description and Trait Trees

Hi, I saw your comment on my description test page if I make them darker than I think they will be unreadable on dark vector skin (how I originally became interested in this its what I use). I'm confused where your seeing it too bright as I'm looking at it on the default skin on my full sandbox where I've been testing the trait tree layout and not seeing the issue except for the "skills earned" text which Im testing color change on.

And you are correct the ".traittree-blue-bg" etc is coded for the trait tree itself. https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/User:Eldalleth/Sandbox?useskin=vector shows the light version Im looking at and here is dark vector version https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/User:Eldalleth/Sandbox?useskin=darkvector In comparison to the live default vector version of this for example here https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Burglar_Trait_Tree?useskin=vector it actually seemed easier to read.

If you aren't in the wiki discord yet may want to consider joining makes it easier to catch folks real time during projects :) Link is in side bar over there < Eldalleth (talk) 01:11, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Writing improvements

Hi Stargazer, thanks for the spelling, grammar, punctuation, capitalization, etc. improvements you are making to the Mission quest articles. It's normally a thankless task, but I just thanked you. —Thurallor (talk) 19:14, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for noticing! :)

I have a tendency to notice details and other finer things that most people don't, so I try to correct things that are off as I find (read: stumble upon) them. Sadly I still don't catch everything though (as you yourself just saw)! =D

Brawler Icons

Thanks for adding a lot of trait/skill icons of the new Brawler class and your other contributions recently. The Brawler pages will look good at the release next week. --RoyalKnight5 (talk) 18:45, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

I still have a lot more to do, but I need to take a break and cook some food. :D

I'm a bit worried that many of the icons seem to be placeholders (i.e. lots of Burglar, Champ, Captain and RK icons, as well as several duplicates) and still, on Bullroarer, not the finalised ones yet. But I figured it's better to add everything and hook it up correctly, and then just replace the image files later if/when needed.

It's also a bit annoying when I realise I've made a slight mistake and need to move something, which leaves a redirect behind (because I can't choose not to), that I can't delete, and can't overwrite the old location by moving something else onto it either, because the system won't allow that. It's terribly frustrating, and we'll see how much hair I have left when I'm finished, lol! :P

But thank you! :)

--Stargazer (talk) 20:01, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Hi Stargazer the ability to suppress the redirect on page moves or to delete a page is limited to users with admin rights. I know it can be frustrating you can always tag a page for deletion or let a admin know and we will be happy to remove the redirect. --Oakheart (talk) 00:54, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

Tag for deletion with the "Delete Page" template: {{Delete Page|<explain why>}} —Thurallor (talk) 01:27, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes, indeed. That is what I have been doing. =D

But thank you both for your help! It's always appreciated. :)

--Stargazer (talk) 15:03, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

I mentioned it in the Wiki Discord but I'm not sure your there. Had some caching issues apparently with the blue line Joy of Battle Heal icon not showing your version was correct so had uploaded a new version only for it to finally show your version was correct :D Not really a huge issue but wanted to mention, just in case it was on watchlist and you wondered what in the world I was doing lol. Thanks again for uploading the icons made my life so much easier because I had screenshots to do them and it enabled me to work on the Class deeds page instead :) Keep up the awesome wiki work, its appreciated. Eldalleth (talk) 02:07, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Thank you too! ♥ I'm happy to help wherever I can; this is a team effort after all. :)

Yeah, I too have run into problems with the site's caching of the images. Sometimes they would update immediately, but sometimes it would take 5 minutes, or 10, or 20. Sometimes an hour, and sometimes even a full day before things update! :O

What I found best to do – after having uploaded an image file – was to purge the cache of the File page, then purge the cache of the Skill/Trait page it is used on, and then simply move on and leave it be. Either it has updated properly at that point (yay!), or else it is being stubborn and will update itself in the (hopefully near?) future when it feels like it, whenever that might be. :S

Speaking of which; I need to upload a new version of that particular icon, to update your update, lol! Sorry! :P

There's actually a small difference between the Skill and Trait versions of the icon (as is similarly the case with several others as well), if you look closely enough: pink border with rounded corners versus a more square icon with pale green-ish border.

I've been learning to use GIMP as I go along, and I started noticing these things when I began learning how to round out the corners by making the pixels there transparent (you might have noticed some of the later icons having rounded/transparent corners? :D) — the transparency was especially needed for the Hurl Object icon which took some time to fiddle with (but might still need more work to make it look right, because it was really my first ever attempt at this sort of thing). :)

--Stargazer (talk) 16:18, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Discord

Hi Stargazer, I would like to invite you to join our Discord. It is a great place to ask for help and get quick responses in addition to using the talk pages in the Wiki. To connect, use this link from the Discord App or browser https://discord.gg/qhhtRnE thanks. --Oakheart (talk) 22:51, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

Hi Oakheart!

Unfortunately I don't use Discord at all (for various reasons), so that isn't an option I'm afraid.

I'll just have to stick to using the Talk pages — which is where ALL discussions about (possible) changes should take place anyway! :)

Thank you for the invitation though.

--Stargazer (talk) 10:30, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Replace Text Function

As a admin you now have access to the replace text function in the special pages. Just wanted to give you an FYI since you are not on Discord. The replace text is currently not working properly so if you try to use it and see that your changes are not happening that is why. We are hoping the next MediaWiki update fixes the problem. --Oakheart (talk) 01:58, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Okay, good to know. Thanks for the info! I have also received and read your mail, btw. :)

--Stargazer (talk) 13:18, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Special:ReplaceText is working now. —Thurallor (talk) 21:49, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

Yay, nice! \o/ --Stargazer (talk) 22:11, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

New LI Icons

Hi Stargazer! Thanks for helping with creating the new LI pages and uploading the icons. We were discussing the naming system of the icons in the Discord and are thinking about using

[Type] of Legend(s) [number]-icon.png

and dropping the suffix 'of the First Age'. I added an example table on Category:Dagger Icons, feedback is appreciated!

Just wanted to let you know that we might rename some of the icons. --RoyalKnight5 (talk) 08:59, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

I had been thinking along similar lines, sort of, when I was adding the icons for the Battle-gauntlets and creating the icon table for them. I really couldn't justify, or even see the need quite frankly, to have a separate table for the Legendary icons, as in all likelihood there would be very few of those (if even more than one?).

My approach was to instead use the same naming system as for the other icons, and simply just introduce the new Legendary icon(s) as a new "quality" (see example), as such;

File:Typename ## (legendary)-icon.png

and then add a new column, 'Legend', next to 'Epic' in the same icon table as the other qualities. This seemed to make the most sense to me, utilising the same structure and offering the least amount of confusion going forward.

So this idea would be my suggestion, and feedback, for that discussion. Thoughts on this? :)

Keep in mind that, as I mentioned, with this new LI system the amount of varied appearances (and thus icons) will likely be vastly reduced compared to before — especially for the more 'specialised' item types, like e.g. the Battle-gauntlets, Halberd, Staff and so on; not to mention all the Class items — so having a separate table (and perhaps also a separate naming system?) just for those might be hard to justify. It might just look silly. :)

Anyway, whichever system we end up going with, it should be clear, consistent and well-documented! =D

--Stargazer (talk) 11:20, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

I agree, your names might be more in line with the general naming system .and is also independent of the precise in-game name (unlike my names), which might be useful if SSG would change the names. I'll refer other editors to this discussion and ask what their thoughts are. --RoyalKnight5 (talk) 12:12, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Your idea does make sense. I'm not particularly happy with the distiction between 'legendary' and 'epic', though. Afaict, those names for the quality were used interchangeably, at least on the wiki. See here for example for an official use of 'legendary' as a quality, and here for the wiki using 'epic' for the same thing. Making a table with a clear distinction between those would be really confusing. So: If we can justify adding the legendary weapons to the 'epic' column, that sounds fine. If another column is needed, we should probably just keep the naming system separate. Which would probably not be the worst thing, as it seems that the legendary item icons are pretty much fixed in place anyway, meaning that new icons or weapons are unlikely to be added regularly. --Fanchen (talk) 14:07, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

The article you linked to has been mentioned and discussed on other Talk page (e.g. here and here) as being somewhat controversial, since it mixes up new and old nomenclature and use them interchangably – in particular for Traceries – which might be confusing. As such, it might be rather shaky to base any decision-making around that particular source.

In any case, I would be opposed to mixing the Legendary icons in with the other 'epic' ones, in the same column, because they're clearly not the same. Legendary items being rather like 'epic on steroids' if you will, so quite in a league of their own that would set them apart from other epic items – even though they might look the same; bearing the same colour etc. I mean, even the icons themselves are much more elaborate compared to other items (border, appearance and so on) making them clearly distinct and of "higher quality" in some sense.

Would this be an argument in favour of Legendary icons being completely stand-alone, in a table of their own? Yes, normally it would be, I think. However, as I mentioned above, their somewhat limited quantity might be a factor against it, since it could look a bit silly. My proposed compromise (least amount of extra work, utilising the system we already have, and hopefully minimising confusion as well) was to simply add another column for them in the existing table(s), as an added ("higher" in some sense?) 'quality'.

Is this a perfect solution? No, it isn't. I think whatever solution we end up going with will be a compromise either way, regardless. You say that this idea of an added, separate column in the same table would be really confusing. I would be interested to know how/in what way it's confusing?

Bear in mind that what we're discussing here is to a high degree "behind the scenes" stuff, so to speak; the convention to use for the naming of icon files and the organisational system in which to get an overview of said uploaded files — something that most users/editors would rarely, if ever, come into contact with. That's not to say that the system we choose shouldn't be easy to understand and work with – it definitely should – but only to point out that most people using this wiki will never be impacted by what we're discussing, and ultimately decide upon. :)

--Stargazer (talk) 15:07, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Are the same icons even used for different icons? If not, we might not need a table at all and can just name the icons 'Hunter's Sword of Legends-icon' or whatever.

Anyway, what I dislike about the tables is that they are often sparsely populated. New columns have to be added at times because special versions of the icon appear, and then there whole table gets another column just because of a single icon, or the column is used for different icons inconsistently (also referring to other icon tables here, not only the weapons). Doing this just inflates the tables, and there's no clear benefit to even having the icons as part of the table. --Fanchen (talk) 15:38, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

At this time, the new LI icons are not used for other items, however, they might be in the future. For this reason, and also the possibility of a name change in-game, a generic name as described on Category:Icons is preferred. I like the naming system suggested by Stargazer above.

Concerning the icon tables, yes, tables are getting big, but I think grouping the items in two dimensions (item appearance and border colour/type) has its benefits. But this topic probably deserves a separate discussion. Changing the icon tables and names would require a lot of work.

To summarize, I personally prefer Stargazer's naming in a standalone table for legendary item icons (precisely how it is currently done for LIs). I am not opposed to using an additional column 'Legend' instead though. --RoyalKnight5 (talk) 17:34, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Just as a FYI to anyone following this conversation: I will finish hooking up all the remaining new LIs but without icons for now. This until there has been a consensus reached, and an 'official' decision made, on the naming convention to use for the icon files themselves.

Just to note; I already have all the image files needed for them, but will hold off on uploading those until later. :)
--Stargazer (talk) 22:53, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

To try and come to a agreement, I am going to add a voting table. At the moment, I think the main discussion is about whether to display the LI item icons in the big main table or in a separate table below it (see Category:Dagger Icons for an example). Please write your preference in the table below or if you have another suggestion. --RoyalKnight5 (talk) 07:29, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Name	Separate table
RoyalKnight5	Yes
Stargazer	No
Thurallor	No preference
Fanchen	Yes

There seems to be little input to this discussion from editors. I think we can conclude with one additional vote that a separate table should be used. For the name I believe we agreed on

 File:[weapon type] [number] (legendary)-icon.png

I have made an example table on Category:Dagger Icons, but the names need to be adapted still. Thank you for the constructive discussion Stargazer and Fanchen. :) --RoyalKnight5 (talk) 07:11, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Brawler legendary weapon naming

Hi Stargazer, you recently renamed Item:Brawler's Battle-gauntlets of Legend to Item:Brawler's Battle-gauntlets of Legends to bring the naming in line with the other legendary items. However, for the Brawler, that does not seem to be the correct name -- all other classes use the plural version, but the Brawler is apparently an exception in the game currently. --Fanchen (talk) 14:46, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm looking at the barter NPC right now, and you are indeed correct; the Battle-gauntlets are different in naming, and appear to be the only Legendary item that is. As such, I would take this to mean it is a typo by SSG and something that is surely to be corrected in the near future. Therefore, I would suggest simply doing a redirect from the current in-game (but obviously "incorrect") naming, to the page we already have set up and linked on other pages, which follows the same naming as all the other Legendary Items do.

Later, when SSG fixes the naming of this item, we can just remove the redirect and won't need to change anything else. :)

--Stargazer (talk) 14:58, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Small addendum: The Class Items do not have a "of Legends" suffix at all, so they also differ. I suspect this will get changed as well, in an update in the (near?) future.

--Stargazer (talk) 15:02, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Here I have to agree with Fanchen. The page Help:Names explicitly states that the wiki should use the in-game names, even if they are inconsistent (maybe they are using the singular 'Legend' because 'Battle-gauntlets' is plural?). There is no guarantee SSG will rename certain pages and using other names and redirect pages might create problems in the future. --RoyalKnight5 (talk) 15:09, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Okay, fair enough. --Stargazer (talk) 15:15, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Sweden

Hej hopp. Såg att du var svensk, som jag. Bor i Stockholm, och du? Zimoon 21:39, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Det gör inte jag – längre. Bor c:a 8 mil därifrån numera. ;)

--Stargazer (talk) 22:03, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

;-) — Zimoon 22:15, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Music section edit

Dear Stargazer- Thanks for your comments. I should have done some study of the contributor's sections before offering any comments. There are many music users and it is surprising that no one has updated the Music page as the information became outdated. When I started trying to write music files, it totally confused me since following the directions there just don't work any longer. I ended up going to the official abc notation site, looking at actual Lotro songs in the off-site database, then downloading Maestro and AbcPlayer. I was able to convert Midi song files to abc notation and play them quite successfully. I've done 98 songs and play often on Crickhollow in Bree and in particular at the winter festival. I've gotten fairly handy at sight-editing the abc notation to correct timing, trim out redundancy and sour notes. I am NOT a musician, though I have experience with sound systems and live performance mixing. I import public domain midis, remix with Maestro and proof them with AbcPlayer before testing them in the game. I do strictly solo songs. Many of the other folks in the game have midi players and create their own file. Their path begins parallel to mine, but in the end it has to become an abc file just like my songs. I suspect more folks would play music if they had access to what I've learned. SO, I will back off and learn the editing protocols for lotrowiki before proceeding. When I feel ready, I'll get in touch for further guidance. Larrydacula (Illarynn) (talk 8 November 2021).

Hi Larrydacula,

The comment I wrote, in the last paragraph at the bottom of your talk page, was not directed at you; it was in response to the post written by Egarthur above it – which might seem confusing since he didn't sign his post in the usual way (i.e. 4 tildes in a row; ~~~~) and instead wrote his name in a textbox, but you can see that my paragraph is indented one level (just like the one I'm writing here). This is the commonly-used way to denote what (and whom) you are referring to, when writing responses on the wiki: to always indent your text one level further than the part you are responding to, in a 'threaded' kind-of-way, to make it easier and clearer to follow along in discussions. :)

There might be many music users – just like there are many users of various other aspects of the game – but the thing about a wiki is; it's a 'living entity' of sorts: it needs to be 'nurtured', by having people (like you) invested in keeping the topics they are interested in up-to-date and making sure of that by actually making the edits needed as and when information becomes outdated or is otherwise found to be inaccurate or incorrect. If noone is actively reviewing and/or editing a certain part, the information there will at some point become outdated, sadly – regardless of how many passive practitioners it may have. :(

You should absolutely share the knowledge and expertise you have with others! Don't be afraid of editing or of making mistakes; everyone is new to it at first, we all were (myself fairly recently in fact), and everybody will make mistakes at some point as well. You can't really screw up anything that can't easily be undone or fixed anyway, so go ahead and edit! :)

It might seem like there's a lot to learn at first, but honestly most of it isn't necessary to get you started and whatever else you might need you will likely pick up along the way as you go along. There are of course various Guides and Help pages for various things (like e.g. the Article Management Tags that Egarthur was referring to earlier, which are quite useful) available, should you feel you need them.

One very useful tip I can give you – most especially if you're new to wiki editing, but also in general – is to look at what other editors are doing and/or how certain things have been done previously. You can really learn A LOT from just looking at in what way some edit has been implemented, by comparing the 'diffs' in the page history!

And also: don't be afraid to ask for help, assistance or guidance if you have questions. You can do so either through the 'Discussion' section of a given page, if your topic is related to that specifically, or by reaching out to other editors directly – either on their Talk page(s), or on Discord if that's your preference. People will be happy to help you if and when you need, with whatever you may need! :D

So please, keep on editing, and I hope this helps! :)

--Stargazer (talk) 15:12, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Deathbanes

I don't know why Deathbanes removed your addition of categories but likely they didn't understand why it was added. I have redone your job but also added a "congratulation" note on their talk page. Which we usually do upon promotions. Either way, you did well and I helped in the end, good team-work! — Zimoon 11:23, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Ladrochan

While I appreciate you checking up on me, I am not infallible ;), some things make me having to ask. Such as Ladrochan. Now I see "Annâk-khurfu" being weird in region vs. cost. Also I see "Minas Tirith (Midsummer)" causing a double-height row because "Minas Tirith (Midsummer)" doesn't fit into the cell's width. And "Lhanuch"'s prereqs now take 4 rows height instead of 3 that I had it down to by abbreviating.

I am well aware that contents render differently on their machines. So I try to add some leeway sideways to allow for some differences, but of course it may still fail. Table widths of max 600 makes tables show beside contents to the right side even with a not-maximized browser window. We are many editors that have the browser ½ - ⅔ to be able to see e.g. in-game items, quest, etc. behind. So of course lots of prereqs or alike won't make it easy to have any one-size-fits-all here :)

I notice you are not on Discord so it is harder to chat about these issues when they happen. Maybe you could consider joining us? — Zimoon 21:30, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Hm, I think I've found the problem. It would appear that, sometimes, the different wiki skins are slightly different in the way they display things. So while it might look great when using one skin, it might look wonky in another — and vice versa. I always (well, like 99.8% of the time anyway) have all my windows maximised, browsers included, but I now did like you said and resized the browser tab to make it as narrow as possible (i.e. to only just fit the width of the table in it), and put the same content side-by-side with different skins, for comparison. Here's what the page looks like for me: https://snipboard.io/ZeGRSv.jpg

I always use Darkvector here, and as you can see the table looks just fine on the left. But on the right, the wonkyness that you describe appears; so I'm guessing you use Vector, right? :D

My mistake was that I didn't think to double-check how the changes looked with the Vector skin — sorry about that; I will try to tweak the table some more to get it looking good in Vector as well (even though it really hurts my eyes!). More specifically, on the points you mentioned:

• "Minas Tirith (Midsummer)": This was on two lines before as well, when it was abbreviated to "(Mid.)", in Darkvector (but strangely not in Vector; so there it's the opposite!?). However, many other rows are on more than one line as well so I don't see this being a problem really. It's much better to have it properly spelled out and taking up two lines, than compacting it to try and shoehorn it into a single line just for the sake of it, and it ending up being ambiguous and confusing. ;)
• "Annâk-khurfu" Region & Cost: Yeah, this looks strange (in Vector). The problem here being the 'special case' of using colspan="2" to combine the two cells, because the price for this fare is too wide to fit into the Cost column (or, more accurately; the Cost column is far too narrow!). And since you sadly can't insert 'tabs' or some dynamic/elastic 'space fillers' in-between the content to push it out to the edges, this has to be tweaked manually. The region and cost were too close together and looked weird, so I tried to push them further apart — it seems I pushed a little too far so it went over the edge, so I will tweak it back a little. :P
• "Lhanuch" prerequisites: Yep, this appears to have spilled over slightly as well, in Vector. I'll play around a bit with sizing etc. here as well, and see what I can come up with.

That said though, in general I don't see this thing with text being on multiple lines in tables as being a 'problem', at all. I am however of the (fairly strong) opinion that on the wiki we should use proper language, grammar and sentence structure and so on – spelling things out fully in a clear and unambiguous way – and NOT use abbreviations and the like; in particular such abbreviations as are not in wide and common use in the language itself, away from the game and its nomenclature! For many reasons. Not in the least of which because of the fact that it becomes ambiguous and leads to confusion (and possibly irritation) for the reader. But also because it is often quite sloppy and downright lazy to do so, and usually serves no purpose either (the by far most common excuse is "to save time", but the difference – at least when typing on a keyboard – is normally negligible). As contributors to this wiki it is our duty to provide the readers with good and clear information. If they don't understand what they're reading, then we have failed in that. That's one reason why we should aim to not use abbreviations and the like (that are not in common use in the language), and instead always spell things out properly. :)

Just to illustrate with a quick example here: "Min. level" would be okay to use, because "min." as a common abbreviation of "minimum" is in wide use in everyday life; not only in English, but in other languages using similar words as well. So it would normally be clear even to the casual reader. Conversely, shortening "Midsummer" to "Mid." would not be okay, as it is very unclear to what it is referring (unless the reader is already deep in the know, in which case chances are they're not looking for that information anyway!) due to it not being in common use, and therefore open to all sorts of ambiguity.

Sorry if I'm sounding a bit harsh there; I mean no offence or disrespect. And it's not meant as an accusation towards anyone in any way. I just want us to be the best wiki we can be, for everyone! :)

And being a bit of a linguist of sorts, it's often like nails on a chalkboard to me whenever I see misuse of language and such. Highly irksome, and I think we can do better, and be better. :P

Lastly, about Discord; I've said many times that I unfortunately do not use Discord at all (for several reasons), so unless you all were to switch to something else (like e.g. Mattermost, or Slack) I won't be joining you there, sadly. :(

--Stargazer (talk) 00:15, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Fair enough. I do not agree on everything but in general I do. Certainly on making this wiki the best.

Remember that hovering over a link shows it in full text, no matter the abbreviation. I also believe users are intelligent and from a known word or name they can conclude the rest, unless the abbreviation is really stupid. A solution for the lengthiest prereqs would of course be to put them, or parts of them, as footnotes instead, within the table itself maybe so they are properly transcluded and not forgotten about. The long destination or region/area names names are another story though.

That said, I believe some abbreviations can be fixed by replacing with shorter words, e.g. "completed" → "compl. → "done". I like having the word "and" there instead of a comma, simply because it stands out visibly, and it takes away any ambiguity. Either way, I will think harder doing the rest of the Stable-masters as well as leaving even more leeway within cells for other skins, etc.

Take care and "god fortsättning" — Zimoon 13:41, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

I have now tweaked the Ladrochan table so that it looks "good" in both Vector and Darkvector and, more importantly; it looks the same in both skins! However, in so doing, I was forced to increase the table to a minimum width of 670px. Anything narrower than that, then line wrapping will occur (with "Minas Tirith (Midsummer)" in particular). So, for you and others who run with narrower browser windows, there is a choice between:

1. Resizing the browser window to fit the whole width of the table;
2. Leaving the browser at your preferred size, but then needing to side-scroll in the window to see the full contents of the table; or
3. Changing the width of the table back down to 600px, meaning everyone will then have to live with "Minas Tirith (Midsummer)" wrapping around on two lines instead of one

Take your pick, I suppose... ;)

"Grått nytt hår!" ;P

--Stargazer (talk) 15:54, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

;-) — Zimoon 22:19, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Capitalization - BoA -> BOA

Hey, saw your edit to Template:Item Tooltip for capitalization of BoA, BoE. I think that according to the Help:Names#Exceptions it was correct as it was. Also please discuss template changes, especially protected ones. Thanks. --Drono (talk) 09:52, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Hi Drono! It used to be the way it was in-game, i.e. with a lowercase "on", but I noticed that this had apparently changed fairly recently. That's why I updated the template to match what was now seen in-game. I thought it more of a 'typo' thing and didn't think to check the Naming article first; sorry about that!

I do agree that template changes should first be discussed! I just didn't think a minor correction of this nature was an actual 'change' that was enough to warrant a discussion. But you're right, of course. :)

In fact, I think the prior discussion criteria should be extended to likewise also include any and all changes (minor or not) to other pages that would affect a large part of the wiki; such as e.g. Boilerplates, guidelines, design/formatting, etc. Thoughts on this?

--Stargazer (talk) 14:35, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Response

Hi, I have responded on my talk page. And I also kindly ask you to stop reverting my edits until we have agreed on something. I believe it is quite impolite to not ask anyone being bureaucrat or director before reverting anything. Even if I do mistakes, I am not unerring, I am always open for discussion, so please use my talk page more. — Zimoon 15:55, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Grammar

Hey, i saw you made a couple grammar changes on traceries that contains , and however according some rules i found online, there could be comma before and only if it was independent clauses, or a list of elements with three or more items. --Drono (talk) 19:58, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Hi Drono!

That's not entirely accurate, I'm afraid. Firstly, they aren't "rules" (i.e. not works that define the language as such, or the grammar within); they are merely 'style guides' – i.e. suggestions on how to write something, for clarity and/or consistency. Secondly, there are quite a number of different such 'style guides': for differing countries/regions; professions/groups of people; purposes; etc. And thirdly, they don't always agree – or even at all – on things; which is why there are so many different ones – and the contention between them, on certain topics, is often a source of great controversy. :S

Here, in this particular case, I think you may be thinking of (or referring to) the so-called 'Oxford comma'? Which is one such topic of contention: the various guides cannot agree on how, when, where or even why an 'Oxford comma' should (or should not) be used. There are British guides for and against its use; there are American guides for and against its use. To varying degrees and with varying guidelines on usage. It is, quite frankly, a mess.

Let's take as an example the specific point you mentioned: that some style guides denote the comma after the penultimate item, in a list of three or more items, as 'the Oxford comma'. It is here interesting to note a couple of things:

1. The 'Oxford comma' has been arbitrarily denoted as having to do with a "list of three or more items", for no good reason at all; this is merely a special case of the more general (and more formal) 'serial comma', which does not have that limitation on number of items (i.e. it works with enumeration of two items as well, and is sometimes used in that regard).
2. The 'Oxford comma' is said to be named after the University of Oxford in England, which is often taken as the definitive 'authority' on the English language. However, the University of Oxford – in their own style guide – not only does not specify the number of entries in the list at all, but also discourages the use of this comma in general, which is rather hilarious (and weird)! But they do still allow it; e.g. to prevent ambiguity in a sentence. Interestingly enough, in that case they even state: "However, always insert a comma in this position if it would help prevent confusion."
3. Not all uses of , and... near the end of a sentence have to do with an 'Oxford comma' or a 'serial comma' at all – because not all such cases are necessarily enumerations of a list of items! You mentioned independent clauses above for one thing. There is the example with clauses containing defining information; e.g. "Shakespeare was popular, and his plays were all profitable". Or just a normal, disambiguating comma: for example one that breaks up confusion between noun groups that may have internal and's; e.g. "She works in research and development, and risk management and strategy". Or simply a plain comma to help the sentence because it helps the reader. :D

Although the various styles don't seem to agree on much when it comes to use of these kinds of commas, there is one thing they all DO seem to agree on 100%, like a "rule" or some such: Clarity trumps conventions!

Meaning that, while you should try to follow a convention to stay consistent, no matter which convention you follow you should always break it for the sake of improving clarity; e.g. by adding (or removing) a comma if needed, to combat ambiguity and/or improve readability of the sentence to help the reader. So they agree that, while you should strive for consistency, clarity takes priority. :)

At the end of the day, these are just style choices though, and as such is inherently subjective; different people will have different styles. However, it is important to note that this usage of commas is not 'wrong' – it is grammatically correct and valid – just 'different'! As an academic point it's an interesting topic to discuss, but comma separating an "and" is perfectly fine grammatically, no matter by what nomenclature it is called. ;)

My (main) objective in these Tracery description edits was to attempt to minimise the possibility of confusion or misinterpretation, by making grammar and/or syntax changes to hopefully eliminate any (possible) ambiguity in the sentences, and thereby improving clarity and readability. "Help the sentence because it helps the reader", in other words. I did have a look at the Spelling and Punctuation help page as well as the Manual of Style, but neither contained any recommendations on the subject. Even so, clarity would still take priority, as mentioned earlier. Which was the intended goal here. :)

I hope this helps to clear things up; and perhaps some of it might be informative or maybe even of educational use as well? :D

Sorry for the late reply though – I am rather busy of late. :O

--Stargazer (talk) 15:31, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

I know in Sweden we use commas a lot more then UK English people do. And I am not English native so I won't comment on comma at all. But that paragraph that was changed could be rephrased to become a lot clearer anyway. And maybe that would resolve the comma discussion altogether, perhaps. — Zimoon 15:58, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Quite interesting. I am also not English native, i was basing this on my own language and what we have been taught in school. From what i have found it seemed it would be similarly applied in English. Reading more it seems american english does not really have that rule, british english has some rules but debatable.

I guess it is not really important, thanks for the long explanation. --Drono (talk) 17:43, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Promotion to Bureaucrat?

Hi Stargazer! I sent you a email but never got back a response are you interested in being bumped up to Bureaucrat? --Oakheart (talk) 04:04, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Hi, Oakheart!

The reason you didn't get a response to your mail was because I didn't see it. I went back to look, and found that it had somehow been diverted into the Spam folder, for whatever reason! :O

I've added a 'whitelist' filter now though, so that shouldn't happen again. Sorry for that!

In answer to your question; that isn't for me to say, I think – it would be up to you to decide if you think I'm suited for that. I'm happy to help with whatever. :)

--Stargazer (talk) 21:00, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Urugarth vs. Carn Dûm

Hi Stargazer,
I reverted your edits to Urugarth locations since I believe the original data was according to documentation. Urugarth is a world instance completely contained within the area of Carn Dûm. I fully understand where you come from but ...

At this page Rogue wrote about the distinction between area and instance. Basically, an instance is an instance but "should the area cover much land outside the instance it should be handled as an area". Though Urugarth, as far as I know, is not an area but it is contained within CD (area).

Alternatively, if that would lessen any confusion in the case of Urugarth, we can omit the area parameter altogether. And if so I guess the same holds for locations within Carn Dûm (Instance).

However, I do not claim ethereal wisdom on the matter, certainly not. Maybe it would be good to review the current style in the light you brought forth here. But until that has been done I think we should not change the policies just like that, OK? — Zimoon 17:15, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Well, actually you're wrong, unfortunately. See, the instance Urugarth is completely contained within the area of Urugarth. Yes, that's right. Urugarth is also an area!

As an example, take a look at this screenshot: https://snipboard.io/8rT7p9.jpg

As you can clearly see, I have just entered the area of Urugarth (denoted by the system message in yellow text, and also visible under the mini-map) and I'm not inside the Urugarth instance but rather looking down on that fortress (i.e. the 'instance'), and some of the locations within the instance, from above. To make that even more abundantly clear, I also started up a different instance, ready to be entered – neither of which would be possible had I already been inside the instance of Urugarth. :)

So, here there should be no doubt that the Urugarth instance is, in fact, completely contained within the area of Urugarth; and not Carn Dûm (area or otherwise)!

The talk page you linked to – or, rather, the talk page further linked to from the bottom of that, which talks mainly about "sub-regions" but still related – was rather interesting. What's written there lends even more credence to my conclusion above being correct. I could go into more detail on that if needed, but the above should be proof enough I think, so I'll leave it for now. :P

Also, I have not been trying to "change the policies", and I have no idea where you got that from!? All I've done here is to correct some things I saw that were wrong. That's it; no more, no less.

Lastly, please don't blindly use the 'rollback' feature without checking first – and thereby reintroducing other errors that have been fixed (such as corrections to coordinates for locations, as they are shown in-game). Thanks!

--Stargazer (talk) 01:00, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Fair enough. I stand corrected and will revert my reverts. — Zimoon 10:45, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

I am both wrong and not wrong. Urugarth is exactly what Rogue wrote about. She also added "Remember that it is just a technicality that Turbine is using the area-concept for world instances, it does not turn instances into areas." So seen from a Lotro-Wiki standpoint I am right.

I found the spot where it is possible to stand inside the "area" of Urugarth and I admit it exists. Some few square meters actually 😜 But I agree with Rogue on this one. And policies should stand. I will think about this topic. But I agree it would be foolish to give readers a sense of availability where there is none. — Zimoon 18:17, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Woe of the Willow

Are you certain the WotW deeds are not slayer deeds? At least they read as such in LotroCompanion, meaning they with high likelihood read so in Lotro's game files as well. Please show a screenshot of them to show which icons they use. — Zimoon 19:23, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

These deeds are clearly not of the kind "kill X amount of enemy Y". Moreover, they are also not regional deeds (they are obviously instance deeds); in which case the Regional-sub parameter should be left blank, according to the documentation. What "icon" they happen to show in LotroCompanion is completely irrelevant.

--Stargazer (talk) 20:40, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

You are correct about the regional-sub but that was not the topic here.

Please show us a screenshot of the deed from the in-game Deed Log. You are right, LotroCompanion does not govern how deeds are handled at Lotro-Wiki but ever so often it shows exactly the same information as is found in-game. The comment about "kill X..." is irrelevant in the sense that if the icon of the in-game deed log shows "slayer deed" that is what we show at the wiki as well. — Zimoon 21:15, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

PS. In fact, "Instance" is not even mentioned as a deed-type and should not be used, if we want to be very square when reading the documentation 😉 — Zimoon 21:36, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Per the current documentation and implementation of the template you are correct, regarding Slayer for instance deeds. For further discussions I created Template talk:Deed#Display Design, hoping that we will continue to improve Lotro-Wiki further 🙂 — Zimoon 13:18, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Reverts

Hiya, I see you reverted some edits I batched yesterday. I am fine with that but want to explain my thinking: I removed region1/2 iff they did not have any coords. I guess it is a matter of taste whether to display only the "map" name, or not. I thought not but I gather you feel differently. And since the boilerplate doesn't really say either way we are entitled to our different tastes 😉

(Though in most cases nowadays the info-box reads "Region" for the map value when it is not a region but an area, or even an instance, etc. IMHO the map value should have been hidden from the very start but only the coords displayed and producing the popup-map. But I guess it is too late to change that now.)

That said, I found out that the script had an error so I stopped it and reverted the faults it caused. I wanted to replace , with or (and in next step change to or) to streamline the values of startinglocation (chiefly) before moving on with the Quest Project. But I didn't think of names having comma signs within, silly of me. Either way, I reverted those errors within half an hour or so.

— Zimoon 15:25, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Thank You.

Hi Stargazer, i would like to say thank you for the promotion ninja on lotro-wiki, i would like to learn how i can help you guys out here.Treebeo -- Treebeo (talk) 10:42, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Hi Treebeo! Sorry for the late response; I've been away for a while on vacation. :)

There are any number of ways in which you can get involved and help out here on the wiki, actually! And it can be just as simple as e.g. updating the stats on an item you've come across. Every little bit helps! :D

Quite often people just stumble across some bits of information that is outdated or otherwise inaccurate/incorrect on some page, and they update it – or even provide even more information than was there before as well.

In learning how to help out on the wiki, a very good place to start is to have a look at the Welcome-box that was added to your talk page, and check out the links there. Also, the Help page that is always available on the left sidebar is a great portal that contains lots of additional information – from getting you started to more advanced editing and contributions. :)

Then, once you start getting more involved, I would recommend picking one or a couple of subjects that interest you personally, and try to contribute with whatever you can there. For example, some people focus on quests/quest information and the like, others on e.g. crafting and items. Some people have a great interest in (and amazing knowledge of) lore, history and background, so they contribute with a lot of information to those. There are people who make lots of graphical contributions e.g. in the form of various screenshots; like those who are very interested in housing items, cosmetics, pets - or cosmetic pets! :D

Well, you get the idea. Picking something that interests YOU means that you will naturally contribute with whatever you're able to; your knowledge and expertise, as it were. Because different people have different interests and tastes, and together – as a community effort – we all contribute to the whole and keep the wiki evolving! =)

In case you don't really know what you're interested in but still really want to contribute any way you can, you can for instance look at the 'Things to do' category for specific problems that need fixing or other jobs that need doing. Or you could take up a surprise challenge and click on the 'Random Page' link, to get a random page which you can go through and scrutinise to see if something there needs editing! ;)

If you're looking for bigger things to do, you can also pick up one of the many Projects (see the bottom of the Help page as well).

Throughout it all, if at any stage you feel like you need help or have questions, please feel free to use the Discussion tab (see also the info in the Welcome box) of the article in question (if it's a topic specifically related to that) or otherwise ask someone else for help or advice (especially if it's some more general question) – either on their Talk page or on Discord if you're also on there. There's a lot to learn, especially if you're new, and noone knows everything anyway, so don't be afraid to ask! :)

Oh btw, I also noticed you were doing several edits struggling to get your signature here on my talk page to look like the others, with the time stamp and everything. This is something that you actually don't have to do manually; it can all be inserted automatically for you! As you can see from the info in the Welcome box, if you put four tildes (~~~~) in a row – or click the 'squiggly signature' looking button at the top of the Edit window (third from the left, next to the italic 'I') – the wiki will automatically insert a correctly-formatted signature for you in that place!

I hope this helps you out with the information you were looking for, and sorry again for my long delay in getting back to you. Good luck, and happy editing! :D

--Stargazer (talk) 13:30, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Small text in Infobox Quests

Hey, i can make a bot script to remove the <small>''or''</small> from the Infobox Quests. What do you think is the best approach there?
I think, that if both of the texts there are not links, or might be nice to show its two different locations/names.
Also, did you see some other uses of <small> that should be corrected?
--Drono (talk) 08:31, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Hi Drono. Thank you for volunteering to do some bot scripting! :)

I haven't been able to take look at it in detail yet – I just did a cursory glance yesterday – but it seemed like that in the particular case of these Quest Infoboxes, the ReplaceBot could take care of those easily enough in just a single pass. Out of just over 200 instances, only something like 5 instances would need to be done manually; e.g. where the "or" is in the middle of a link, or between items that aren't linkified at all. Because yes; I agree that, as you say, in such cases we can change it to or – keeping the italics but just removing the small tags – to distinguish it from the surrounding text. So the <small>''or''</small> in the Quest Infoboxes I can probably take care of myself with the ReplaceBot and a little bit of added manual editing. There are also a handful of cases where double (i.e. <small><small>...</small></small>) tags have been inserted, that can be sorted out manually as well.

The issue is all the other instances where <small> has been inserted all over the place: inside tables, or in parentheses, just stand-alone etc., which goes beyond that ReplaceBot can (easily) do, that would require more advanced bot scripting, I think. So if you could start looking into all of those, and try to figure out some solution for them, that would be awesome! I haven't even begun looking at all those cases yet.

My idea was to basically sub-divide it into different (sub-)cases, and do it in stages; e.g. first <small>''or''</small> in Quest Infoboxes, then <small>&</small> → "&", and so on, chipping away pieces of the whole by taking one step at a time, thereby hopefully making easier to solve with botting. Because I don't know how else to handle all the different cases where <small> has been inserted, literally all over the place, for no good reason.

Do you have any other ideas and suggestions? Perhaps a way to solve multiple different cases simultaneously, with more advanced bot scripting?

I'd love to hear your input, as well as others who might have some insight to share! Hopefully together we can find a way forward. :D

--Stargazer (talk) 14:20, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Oh yeah, i forgot about replacebot, searched with it now, it seems its mostly 'or', 'and', '&', 'at', 'with'. There are some other cases that use small, some of them are not necessary but not as bad as these, some other are probably valid. I will leave it to you than, i think dividing into known sub-cases is a good approach, not to mess up something else by chance.--Drono (talk) 15:59, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

I put together an initial project plan for this endeavour, with what I could think of for now. Feel free to review, comment or add ideas/suggestions as needed! Or join up. That goes for anyone else interested in it as well, btw. :)

I will give it some time for now, to wait for comments etc., before getting started on it for real.

--Stargazer (talk) 18:51, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Reverting Inspections

Hello, I'm not sure why you are reverting the inspections I've made on dozens of articles. Those are the actual values the system provides when I run inspection on the creatures. I've also started saving screenshots of the inspections just for this purpose. I've spent dozens of hours gathering accurate information for the wiki. Please prove which inspections are correct or undo your reversions. Cobalt Blues (talk) 20:11, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Hi CobaltBlues!

I was actually going to write you a message later, with some helpful tips and pointers based on what I've seen while going through the Patrol log this evening. But since you're wondering, I'll cover this particular topic here. :)

First off, let me just say we really appreciate all the many contributions you've made, and continue to make! Especially Lore-master inspections for all the creatures missing one are very much wanted. So thank you for that.

When it comes to creature inspections and adding the resulting data, obviously anything is better than nothing at all (as in: where it was previously missing). However, when a creature article already had inspection data from before, we try to keep the result from the LM whose inspection-level is closest to the creature level! This is because of how levels, and level differences, work in the game; the least gap between source and target will give the most accurate data – and also be the most relevant, interesting and of most use to others.

For example: if a creature is level 27, the inspection data from a level 28 LM will be more valuable than that of a level 45 LM, for instance. Or if the creature is level 32, inspection from a level 30 LM is better than from a level 38 LM. And so on. Ergo, the 'closest' data should stay, and not be overwritten by data that's further from the target. :)

Those inspections of yours that I reverted were because of just that; data from a previous inspection, which was closer in level to the target creature, already existed on the page and got overwritten by data that was less accurate (due to much higher level difference) because of how the game works. Not ALL of your inspection additions were reverted though; far from it – in fact, pretty much all of your inspections from Trollshaws, Misty Mountains, Eregion and Moria were kept, simply because you were close(r) to those creature levels! :D

I hope this explanation helps you in understanding which inspections got reverted and why they were. As well as the reasoning for which data we want to keep (if there is more than one source for a certain creature) and why that is the case. Sorry if you got upset and/or confused by it; that was never the intention – it's nothing personal against you at all! Like I said: we do appreciate your contributions, so keep up the good work! If you have any more questions, please feel free to reach out. Thanks! :)

--Stargazer (talk) 20:54, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

So I'm going to have to insert a rather unflattering but very relevant personal anecdote here . . . A month ago, I saw that someone level 140 had replaced level 100 inspections for most Eriador RTs and their edit comment was that they were updating to max level inspection. I incorrectly assumed that meant that the person thought all inspections should be redone at a higher level and I reverted their higher level more recent inspects. After some chatting on Discord and finding that this individual had actually gotten the go ahead from Ravanel (who I feel is our inspection expert), and that the previous inspections were from 2015 or 2016 and therefore were before the morale and stat changes that happened (. . . in 2018 was it?), even at a higher level, those inspections were better because they had current data. (I finally motivated myself today to go and revert my reverts.) I was pretty embarrassed because I had judged only on the inspector level when there were other factors that I consider myself when updating inspections I capture in game, but had disregarded in my jump to conclusions. Actually, I'm still pretty embarrassed. As I told CobaltBlues on their talk page, I haven't actually gone and inspected (prob wrong word in this convo) the history to see if that was at all true in this case--you may very well have taken that into consideration when rolling back the changes.

When we last wrote the rules on inspections, we didn't cover out of date data because it wasn't an issue at the time. However, I know for a fact that when the mob morale change happened, other related stats also changed and some were almost certainly resistances and mitigations, so some of the older inspections may no longer reflect the current weaknesses/strengths of the creatures. I'm going to bow out now, but I felt I had to contribute at least this much. ~ Ruby (talk) 21:41, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the information! That's good to know. Just to clarify here though; in every one of those cases I reverted here, the previous inspection data was checked by Hiyacinth in May of 2020. (Except for a single instance, which might be questionable, so I rolled that back again). That's well after the changes to morale and other stats, so those should be accurate even now, I believe. However, if that turns out not to be the case, it's easy enough to fix. :)

With the class/race changes coming Soon™, I've been considering making a Hobbit LM just for lols, so then I could run around and inspect low-level mobs just to double-check (I have a LM already, but it's level 25 iirc, so not as useful for mobs of lower levels)! :D

--Stargazer (talk) 22:28, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

You have proven yourself much wiser than me, and I bow to your attention to detail xD

Honestly, I had thought you'd checked but, not being a mind-reader, couldn't be sure. And yes, it's easy enough to fix. Revert the reverts and revert them again! What fun.

My LM is 111 so I have worked as I leveled from 100 to 111 to add inspections but I didn't think I could do much about the lower level mobs. When adding missing mobs in Wildermore I went ahead and added my overleveled inspection with the hope that at some point someone closer to that level will change it, and because 85 to 111 is acceptable for now, I think.

Also I want to let you know that I personally dislike Discord (but use it anyway because I bow to peer pressure lol) and also don't trust them as far as I can throw them. Alas, the days of IRC are over . . . *sad face* ~ Ruby (talk) 02:40, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the promotion

Thanks for the promotion. I'll keep editing every once in a while when I find the time. Have a nice time.--The Lord of the Earth 18:58, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for your patience

Just wanted to say I really appreciate the help with that old Bingo quest. --Tharondir (talk) 15:19, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

No worries, we're all part of the same team here on the wiki, and helping each other out and working together is always the best way forward, I think! :D

Thank you for taking care of that quest – it looks good! \o/

--Stargazer (talk) 15:52, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the help

Thanks for the help and corrections on the "A Captain's Charge" page. You found and moved the page while I was over in the Discord asking someone to do just that. This was the first quest page I'd made from scratch, so I appreciate the corrections. I've learned a lot from looking at your edits, and I'll do better next time. Lally (talk) 23:22, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Hey Lally, sorry for the late reply, but you're welcome! It was just luck that I happened to be looking at the live changes at the time, and saw the misnamed page. And don't worry; you did a good job! :D

Some types of pages – like the quest pages – are 'harder' to do than others, since they have so many (and different) sections and aspects to them, that they can sometimes be a little tricky to get 'just right', so to speak. What you mention is a really good principle in general though; to look at other (often more senior/experienced) editors to see what they do, and how they do it. It's how I learned when I was new here – and how I'm still learning things, actually. :)

Just keep this in mind: nobody is perfect, and everybody makes mistakes, no matter who they are. Meaning; that will be true of everyone you're looking at as well! Mistakes are important, because those are what we learn from. =)

Keep up the good work! --Stargazer (talk) 15:21, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

U35 Changes

Hey there just a quick note since it was mentioned in discord. One of the admin (Dadwhereismom) made a google doc where folks can strikeout what they've done to help make it easier to spot what needs doing off these huge patch notes. Lotro-wiki Update 35 Thanks for all the help I've seen you doing already. Eldalleth (talk) 21:51, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! I had a look at it, but as far as the Warden goes – which is all I'm working on for now – the changes are so massive and complex that th patch notes really isn't a good way to keep track of what's been done and what needs doing; in fact, they're a rather horrible mess – all jumbled up all over the place and convoluted – such that they're very unclear. I did cross a few things off that I know have been taken care of, but I'm still working off of the more structured checklist that was already in place. :)

One thing I've recently noticed however, is that the work on this Warden revamp is further compounded by 'interactions' (such as between traits and skills, and so on) that is adding another layer to it, complicating it even more, and is slowing down the updating of e.g. gambits/skills considerably. It's something I failed to anticipate before, but is now proving to be a lot more work than I thought and will require far longer than I had planned. I honestly thought there would be more people interested in working on this project though, and I'm a bit surprised to find that wasn't the case... :O

--Stargazer (talk) 14:57, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Boilerplate: Area / test page Update

Hey Stargazer - I wrote a message on the talk page Talk:Boilerplate:Areas about the sandbox idea. I know it's been a bit and I wanted to revisit this more. Rogue (talk) 21:59, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Oh, I must've missed it, sorry! I will take a look at it later. :) --Stargazer (talk) 17:54, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

transclusions

Hi Stargazer, I just noticed your edit for Hardened Traveller (and Category:Special Quests)... do we need to create a seperate page for everything we want to transclude, and thus not (no longer) use the <section> tags? - Tiberivs (talk) 13:37, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Hey Tiberivs. We are trying to move away from placing content (especially for transclusion) onto Category pages instead of on proper content pages. Putting stuff onto Category pages was something many of us were against but was enacted anyway, by one person in particular, and we're now slowly trying to "clean up the mess", so to speak. See also the relevant talk here. :)

Section tags are of course perfectly fine to use when appropriate/needed – as long as it's on a proper (i.e. content) page, that is. So no; you don't have to create a separate page for just the part for transclusion, just don't put it on a Category page and transclude from there. :P

I hope this clears up any confusion. --Stargazer (talk) 13:55, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

ok cleared up... thanks for the explanation, I missed that, and will keep in mind - Tiberivs (talk) 22:08, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Welcome Back!

Glad to see you posting again Stargazer. I was starting to fear the worst. --Oakheart (talk) 00:33, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Birding "Found In" Locations

I have noticed you have been updating the bird "Found in:" locations for example from "The North Downs" to "North Downs" when the actual stats dialog box of the bird states "The North Downs" is this accurate? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sucamarto (Contribs • User Talk) at 00:18, 5 August 2024.

Yes, because of the wiki categorisation. If a "The" is included in the location, the page will be erroneously categorised; it will end up in 'Stubs/Location' instead of where it's supposed to be. This can be checked by looking at the categories at the bottom of the page (with the 'Show Preview' button) before saving the page, to make sure everything is correct. --Stargazer (talk) 02:43, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

• Just chiming in as I know this has been a confusion for folks. I have updated the Template:Bird/doc to clarify why the Found in: must use the locations without "The". To clarify it here as well it is how the wiki historically categorizes both Misty Mountains and North Downs minus "The". It is how the Template:Creature/doc is formatted as well. I have no idea why in game has gone to adding it with the on the tooltips but here it needs to be without on all except The Shire. I did not design the wiki originally to know who decided no "The" I just follow how its set. :)
• Also, Sucamarto please be sure and sign your comments on talk pages :) with ~~~~. Eldalleth (talk) 02:53, 5 August 2024 (UTC)