Talk:Main Page/Archives 2015-2021

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Producer's Letter Link

Please update link on Main Page so it won't lead to a Deleted Page. I don't have the necessary permissions to do so. --Gestrid (talk) 02:33, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

I find no deleted page link? You might have tried while MediaWiki was updating its internal links. Occasionally it takes longer than normal.

Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 06:23, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

It could've been. I didn't know they updated them, but it said it was deleted by you. Weird. --Gestrid (talk) 21:06, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Remove Update Links

Is it a possibility that we could remove all 15.1 and 15.1.x update links to clean up that section of the Main Page? --Gestrid (talk) 17:21, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

I'd prefer to keep all patches that have gone live since (and including) the last "main" update (in this case Update 15) until the next main update (U16) arrives --Tharondir (talk) 18:20, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Okay. --Gestrid (talk) 19:08, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

I fiddled a bit with the patch listing - does that look any cleaner? Sethladan 04:20, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Could we indent Patches so it's "under" Latest Content Update? --Gestrid (talk) 05:15, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Hmm, looks a little funny to me that way. Thinking I should just take out the subheader. Any other ideas? Sethladan 00:53, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

This is one of those -- They (Turbine) have never done this before! -- issues.

Historically, there have only been one or two patches between Updates, and maybe an occasional "hot fix" -- the timing being much longer between events. Currently, Turbin has been churning out patches "every two weeks." Will this increased frequency continue? No idea.

Similarly, we are about to be confronted with a (hopefully) deluge of "official" announcements regarding the Server moves and transfers. How they will be offered is unknown. Vyvyanne has made reference to again using "Dev Diaries," --- I don't know why they suddenly stopped last year -- just because the number of Devs on the payroll dropped and it was deemed "more productive" to have them coding rather than explaining (i.e. documenting) their changes?

And on top of it all, Turbine has once again changed their numbering scheme for updates and patches!

What's on the page now makes as much sense as anything (with or without the subheader. But I do agree with Tharondir's comment -- to keep all patches listed until the next update -- seems to "Still" make sense.

Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 02:24, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

I do agree with all of this, but I feel like we should still try to clean it up somehow, especially with the way Turbine's been, as you say, churning out patches, and with the fact that server stuff is about to happen. Maybe we could have it like Sethladan's edit from 23:19, February 18, 2015, but shrink the font size to somewhere between the main header's ("Latest Content Update") text size and the Other text under it? --Gestrid (talk) 19:18, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Tracking Server upgrade info

Could we designate a specific group of people to keep track of the server stuff (which seems to mainly show up on the forums, in no particular place) and edit the Wiki pages accordingly? That way, we won't have people seeing one thing on LotRO.com and another here because the page(s) hasn't been updated. --Gestrid (talk) 19:18, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

That is not as easy as it sounds. So far, Turbine has said very little "Officially" about the Server move or Consolidations -- only in Vyviannes' Producer's letter, and comments she made in response to various questions in the thread associated with the letter.

Random comments tend to be made in Frelon's "Thursday with Frelon" Twitch feed, and rarely on Twitter or Face_book. I depend on the transcripts of Frelon's feed, which tend to be a several days behind because they are, like this Wiki, a labor of love, not a paid job.

Vyvanne has promised "Dev Diaries" (or something like them) when details about the Server Move, Character Transfrers an Consolidation "stuff" are closer to reality. These are big projects, and the Snow in Boston has not helped work-flows :).

And because of the nature of the Wiki's relationship with Turbine (we don't even get press releases) we only can re-post information we find on the Forums! (Or occasionally that we find on Gaming Press sites.)

Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 14:58, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Okay. We'll just wait for the dropped hints, I guess. --Gestrid (talk) 15:12, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Virtues

Lanior March 8, 2015 - I think it would be helpful to have Virtues next to Traits in the main page character box.

Done! Thanks for the suggestion :) --Tharondir (talk) 07:23, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

2015 LOTRO Player Council

Do we want to include the LOTRO Player Council announcement in Turbine News? If so, could someone with the appropriate permissions please do so? --Gestrid (talk) 20:55, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Done. I put it under Turbine News. --Tharondir (talk) 12:29, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Update 16 Launch

Please update the Main Page (I would if I had the permissions to do it.) to include links to Update 16 material where appropriate (Patch Notes, etc.) when everything (ex. Update 16 - Ashes of Osgiliath - May 4, 2015 is ready. When updating the "Latest Content Update" and "Patches", maybe you could put something like None yet. under "Patches", since there haven't been any Update 16 patches yet. Also, if the Anniversary Festival is over (I haven't been on in awhile since I hit finished the latest region update.), please remove it from Special Events.

--Gestrid (talk) 02:22, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

New Producer's Letter!

Alright, alright, calm down people! It's only a producer's letter. Could someone add the page I just finished, Producer's Letter - May 2015 to the Main Page next to the others? I don't have the permissions to do it. Also, please update the patch title under patches so it's consistent with the naming format of the update listed unnder Latest Content Update. --Gestrid (talk) 00:19, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Loading screens

Has anybody thought of documenting the various loading screens and what they portray? I'm watching some play-through videos right now (not a player yet, don't think my old laptop would thank me ;-) and some of the scenes look vaguely familiar while others are completely obscure. Most of the latter are internal scenes which look very interesting, but I would have no idea how to go about finding out where they are! —NotACat (talk) 11:15, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

That's an interesting idea. The various loading screens come in two types.

Those that are downloaded as part of the 30 screens loaded at startup - 10 for each language. Those change relatively frequently (or used to, currently only one or two change very infrequently other than the "splash" screen - aka "ad pregame") and are downloaded each time you launch the launcher. These are all easily found on your disks. In a folder called "raw" in your main folder (PC only, it is a very different place on the Mac Client) are 3 "language" folders in which is a folder (directory) called "logo" Also in the "raw" directory are directories for the actual videos in the game - the ones you can replay at startup - nominally the beginning or ending videos from Epic Quests. (.blk format)

Other screens are "transition" screens which are part of the Art Assets in the actual game client.

Other than that first splash screen, when each screen is used is unknown (at least to me). The 10 (for each language) formal transition screens are used on a random basis, but again, I have no idea what the rotation selection is.

I haven't looked, but I assume that one of the Lua Art Asset viewers can be used to find the individual screens.

All that said, feel free to create something. We can easily create a separate Image sub-category to hold the screens themselves.

Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 14:38, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

I've looked through the files on my Steam installation of the game and uploaded the loading screens to a Dropbox file. Here is the link to the .zip file (4.7 MB download). I haven't found the generic loading screens you see after, say, a "loading screen video" has played. However, I have found the "loading screen videos" themselves, but they're in .bik format. There are, of course, downloadable players that can play them. If you want the videos, too, I'm uploading the videos AND pictures together in a .zip file to OneDrive right now. The share link should be available momentarily, and I'll put it here when it is. --Gestrid (talk) 03:07, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

I decided it's better to have a folder than a file since a file is editable. You don't have to constantly upload a single .zip file in order to update just one. I've disabled the above link. Here's a link to an editable folder. The files are still uploading from my computer, so please be patient. They come from my installation of Bulllroarer. I've also added the images you see when the launcher first launches before it connects to the patch server. --Gestrid (talk) 03:26, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Data centre update

News worthy from https://forums-old.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?&postid=7543809#post7543809 , the EU servers stay in the USA. :(

Mogafi (talk) 18:59, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Minor style issue

It is not really an issue but the Special events line is indented the same as the lines below, there is a ":" in front of it causing this.

<div id="mainpage_cellbody">
: '''[[Special events]]'''
: [[:Category: 2015 World Consolidation Event|11 January 2016 Datacenter Launch]]
: [[:Category: 2015 World Consolidation Event|World Consolidation Event]]
: [[Character Transfer Wizard]]
<!-- : None at the moment. -->
..../snip

Other 'headings' have a ";" in front instead, so changing it to the below should return it back to where it belongs.

<div id="mainpage_cellbody">
; '''[[Special events]]'''
: [[:Category: 2015 World Consolidation Event|11 January 2016 Datacenter Launch]]
: [[:Category: 2015 World Consolidation Event|World Consolidation Event]]
: [[Character Transfer Wizard]]
<!-- : None at the moment. -->
..../snip

Honestly hadn't noticed it till today, somehow -Ketrez (talk) 19:34, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

The semi-colon to colon or EOL syntax (;<text>:) is from the early days of MediaWiki. It has been superseeded by the three single quotes to generate bold.

The correct syntax for that line should just be three single quotes beginning in the left position -- no semi-colon is necessary.

Both forms work, and, as on the title page, you will find both forms used on many pages.

Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk

Ah, had to read that twice. I believe I understand correctly - the ";"s were/can be used in the same vein of '''text''' - I wasn't sure if it was anything but a personal style in design, thanks for the info --Ketrez (talk) 01:39, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

To be pedantic (and hopefully useful) the ";…:" syntax in wikicode, when converted to HTML for display in your browser, generates a "definition list" denoted by the tags <dl>, <dt>, and <dd>. So the wikicode:

; definition : description

generates the HTML

<dl><dt>definition</dt><dd>description</dd></dl>

and displays as
definition: description; This syntax is still in use on Wikipedia for the main reason that it adds meaning. For example, a screen-reader can detect these tags and adjust how it reads an article accordingly; other software can likewise act appropriately when it sees these tags. The simple formatting that ''' denotes adds very little meaning: in fact, it would possibly end up having a screen-reader shout the words if it is particularly simple-minded ;-); Interestingly, people use part of this syntax all the time: you have probably noticed that you use colons to indent these conversations (and that the "description" just above is level with my indented text)? This is why it works: the wikicode parser is generating the <dl> and <dd> HTML tags to create the indenting, and if you "view source" for any talk page with indented conversations, you will find them liberally sprinkled throughout!; HTH HAND —NotACat (talk) 14:40, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Interesting. The only place I have seen this documented is under the "Description Lists" at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:List#Description_lists (Help:List), which makes no mention of screen-readers.

And here on the LOTRO-wiki, the only place I see it used is in "old-original" pages.

Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 19:12, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Update 18

@Magill: Where did you see the update is coming April 11? They haven't even tested the Epic Story yet on Bullroarer, according to the most recent beta patch notes. -- Gestrid (talk) 04:35, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

The release date was announced in one of Frelorn's streams last week. Also, the Epic Story is sadly not available in open beta anymore, this was also the case with Update 17.... this sucks, but I guess I'll have to add it after it goes live. --Tharondir (talk) 06:32, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

K, thanks. -- Gestrid (talk) 12:59, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

It seems Frelorn was right. LOTRO.com has a new news release up today from QuartermasterU. -- Gestrid (talk) 21:17, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

UPDATE: Frelorn announced today that the release date has changed to April 12th. -- Gestrid (talk) 22:44, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Update 18 Announcement

Since we have the U17 announcement linked, we should link the U18 announcement. Please update the page with this link: https://www.lotro.com/en/u18 -- Gestrid (talk) 21:53, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

done --Tharondir (talk) 08:53, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

New Dev Diary

Hey, everyone. I just created the page The Making of a Battle, a copy of a dev diary released earlier today. I forgot to ref the source on that page, but I'm currently fixing that If you would like to use it somewhere, feel free to. It's currently uncategorized because I wasn't sure where to put it. Do we have a category for dev diaries that I'm unaware of? Also, the Anniversary thing under Special Events looks a little weird that way. Is there any way to fix that? -- Gestrid (talk) 22:18, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

I fixed the Anniversary announcement. About the dev diary - in the past, we did not bother to add those to the wiki since they are archived on lotro.com anyways, so I was wondering why this was being done in the first place. We could of course create a new category called "dev diaries" but I really don't see the need to add them here. --Tharondir (talk) 06:54, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Ok. You think I should delete the page or not? -- Gestrid (talk) 16:55, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

No, this one we can keep. It would be a shame to just delete it after you made your efforts on its page. --Tharondir (talk) 17:49, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Broken Link

The link under the Turbine News to the new Dev Diary is broken. It leads here when it should lead here. The former leads to the site's 404 (aka "YOU. SHALL NOT. PASS!") page. Also, the page here has been updated with new U18 store items, if we need to update anything here. -- Gestrid (talk) 16:54, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Websites

Do we really need something like "Website: US/EU" or "Forum: US/EU" since the Russian version was discontinued? Couldn't we just do "Website" and "Forum"? -- Gestrid (talk) 05:39, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

New Dev Diary 2

There's a new dev diary up on LOTRO here. -- Gestrid (talk) 21:38, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Moved Page

I've moved the page Update 18.0 Hotfix 1 - April 15, 2016 to Update 18 Hotfix - April 15, 2016 since that was the name used on the LOTRO forums. Also, shouldn't "U18 Hotfix" be next to "Current Version:" instead of under it with the past updates?

And, yes, I know I've posted here a lot lately. -- Gestrid (talk) 20:48, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

New Hotfix 2

Hey, I've loaded up the patcch notes for yesterday's hotfix. Mind linking them on the main page? -- Gestrid (previously Super3588) (talk) 05:29, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

Hi, added, thanks! :) -- Goingbald (talk) 22:51, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

Update 18.1

Update 18.1 is now live. Please add it to the main page and change the "Current Version" to Update 18.1. Here's the link: Update 18.1 - May 16, 2016. -- Gestrid (previously Super3588) (talk) 16:11, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Hi, already done by Magill, thanks! -- Goingbald (talk) 04:28, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Updated Tags

Discussion moved to Category talk:Article Management Tags - Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 15:49, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Social Media

Question: Should we link to LotRO's social media/ Twitch pages? If so, I believe the correct place would be under News and Updates, under Official. I would go ahead and add it, but I think something like linking to an outside site should be discussed first, especially for social media sites. -- Gestrid (talk) 18:56, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

My vote would be under the social section with a category page that a template can populate. I would have very minor concerns of the usefulness of this along with the potential of dead links. --Lotroadmin (talk) 19:16, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

I would agree. Turbine's use of Social Media is a joke, almost as bad as their use of the Forums to be in contact with the player base. There are an assortment of individual Kins and Groups which have Social Media pages -- most are actually blogs, not Facebook or Twitter pages. Reddedit/LOTRO has a bunch of dead links from lists they tried to compile.

Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 19:22, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Well, LotRO has been using both Facebook and Twitch successfully for a while, now (although Frelorn was recently fired, so we'll see). Even if LotRO stops using their Twitch page themselves, there are others that would stream using stream keys. And I don't see them not using Facebook anymore anytime soon, barring the game itself shutting down. I would at least link those two. Definitely not their Twitter pages, though.

Also, what would the usefulness be of using a template as opposed to just putting the links there ourselves?

-- Gestrid (talk) 19:39, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

1- Cardovan is a Twitter user - @JerrySnook

2- Thread on Twich streamers: https://forums-old.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?&postid=7637507#post7637507

That thread includes an idea of things Cordovan wants to do -- also implying that he is likely to be around a while.

it also includes a bunch of Twitch streamers.

Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 16:44, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

If we're going to add the Twitch streamers, too, we may as well create a whole new page and link to it from the main page. -- Gestrid (talk) 16:55, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

And, on that note, I've created a page in my userspace that can be moved to the mainspace when it's ready. Feel free to edit it as needed. User:Gestrid/Social Media - Gestrid (talk) 16:59, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

I believe the article is ready to be moved into the mainspace. However, I'm not sure what to call it. "Social Media" (the current name) just seems too vague a name to use in the mainspace. Any suggestions? (As this question pertains to a specific page, I'd like to continue the name discussion on the talk page. I'm just asking here to draw attention to it.) -- Gestrid (talk) 16:13, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Somewhat related: I recently did a major clean up of Social:List of Fansites (removing a lot of dead sites + added new & active ones). It also contains a list with social media, which I found a bit odd at first, but I kept it as "info to get into contact with other LOTRO players". Being active on these media myself as a means to promote my blog, I can tell you that they are indeed active places of discussion and are in that way useful to link to for people that seek such "know-how" information.

If you guys go ahead with an Official LOTRO Social media page, we should probably coordinate with Social:List of Fansites so the two don't overlap. I'd suggest moving the social media info from the latter to the former, under a subtitile Unofficial social media, or something of the likes. That way it makes more sense content wise and the info is still preserved. --Ravanel (talk) 09:47, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

As for a name: "List of Social Media"? --Ravanel (talk) 09:49, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

It seems it was already taken care of by Magill. See Category:Social. -- Gestrid (talk) 14:08, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Hmm, a bit strange to hide it under a category page, but I don't really care. Linked to it from Social:List of Fansites so people can find it if they want the info. --Ravanel (talk) 11:25, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Standing Stone Games Transition

"The Lord of the Rings Online and Dungeons & Dragons Online have been acquired by Standing Stone Games"

The rest is at: https://forums-old.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?649786-Standing-Stone-Games-Transition-FAQ&p=7676706#post7676706

Mogafi (talk) 20:29, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

News and Updates section

I deleted many of the links in the News and Updates section because it was getting quite long, especially with a browser in non-fullscreen mode, which messes up the grid style of the home page. Some of the old character transfer info, etc. was completely outdated anyhow. Two points which I need to follow up on but don't have time for right now:

I removed some links which we may wish to retain somewhere else (I'm thinking of the links to the SSG interviews), perhaps under a centralized page on SSG? I don't think those things need to be on the front page but speak up if you think I deleted something that's important to keep there.
Several of the news pages are titled with "Standing Stones Games" when the name of the company is "Standing Stone Games" so those should be updated. I haven't done that yet either but will get back to it if nobody else does.

Elinnea (talk) 19:44, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

Cleanup of the 'Standing Stones Games' pages is complete. - Elinnea (talk) 17:44, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

The word "Upcoming" under Patches is misspelled in this section Cobalt Blues (talk) 03:59, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Good catch. Fixed. --Ravanel (talk) 12:48, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Mordor

Page The Lord of the Rings Online: Mordor has been added. Does this need to be added to main page? If so, neither I nor the author of the page can do it. Agathriel (talk) 18:47, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for getting things started.

I have added assorted boilerplate to the page to match previous announcements. And added it to the main page.

Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 23:54, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

Move permission error

"User Mogafi is not authorized to move pages on lotro:en wiki"

I don't know why but that is happening to me. :(

Anyway... The page The Vanished Rider needs to be moved to The Vanished Rider and then its incoming links, just these: Quest:Chapter 11: The Vanished Rider Anduin Wanderer updated but I can do that.

Mogafi (talk) 23:11, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

Oh! Now I remember: server software upgrade!

Editors used to be able to move files. ;)

Mogafi (talk) 03:26, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

Moved Hiyacinth (talk) 04:14, 26 September 2018 (UTC)Hiyacinth

Thanks. :) Mogafi (talk) 07:31, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

Tasks bulletin board

One of the other days I wished to navigate to the Tasks Bulletin Board page, but I didn't know the exact name, and top-down navigation is really not clear. Maybe an idea to add a link to the page in the middle-earth section of the main page. Theogorn (talk) 11:09, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Would you envision it under the section, "Gamplay" or "Middle-Earth" ? Cobalt Blues (talk) 21:36, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Theogorn wrote "the middle-earth section of the main page", so I think that answers CobaltBlues' question.

I checked, and if you search for "tasks" you get redirected to the Tasks Bulletin Board page, but if you look for "task" the page is pretty hard to find. I'll add a redirect for "task", too; pages should be singular in general anyway (see Help:Names). I also agree that it would be nice to put a link under "Middle-earth" and then "Quests". I know tasks are not technically quests, but I think that's where someone who would want to find the page would be looking. Good idea! --Ravanel (talk) 23:18, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

I've just learned I am blind Cobalt Blues (talk) 03:53, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

Haha, I wouldn't go that far. Maybe just eager to help out? ^^

Anyway, I've added the link to the Task Board on the Main Page. The page should now be easier to find. :) --Ravanel (talk) 11:56, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

Carry-All

Please add a link to Carry-all on the equipment section of the main page or put in under another category that might be better. Oakheart (talk) 05:14, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Website Logo Update

Has anyone ever thought to remove the ".com" from the website logo and just call it "Lotro Wiki" I think it would look cleaner and nicer. Oakheart (talk) 05:37, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

I agree, but I'm not sure who created the logo and has the original source composition. Thurallor (talk) 06:17, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

After doing some research the current website logo was determined by a Logo Contest in 2008. The winner was Fedaykinx. Oakheart (talk) 06:42, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Nice. Here's a version of that page that includes all of the contest entries: [1] Thurallor (talk) 18:39, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure we can get in touch with Fedaykink and ask them for an updated logo without the .com, but I know initially there was thought it was needed to keep it unique. We even discussed if we should type LotRO or just LOTRO/lotro, I don't think that even bottomed out. I'm not opposed to morphing the logo if anyone has the gimp/photoshop skills or even consider doing another contest. It might be good to update it such we can have a proper favicon as well with the higher resolution. --Lotroadmin (talk) 23:33, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

What resolution would it need to be for that purpose? Thurallor (talk) 23:43, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

https://realfavicongenerator.net/ seems to have a lot of information. I might have an old version of the jpg, but guessing the resolution won’t be there for the high resolution devices. —Lotroadmin (talk) 03:02, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

How about an animated version, like this]? Thurallor (talk) 00:00, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

That's pretty cool. Oakheart (talk) 06:22, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

I like it as well. Sucamarto (talk) 06:22, 15 Januray 2022 (UTC)

Me too like it, but the animation could be improved and slightly tuned down. There could also be a slanted "blitz" walking down the Lotro-Wiki text. And that text could look slightly better. And ofc, the animation should continue and not stop after first loop, maybe a 5 sec. pause and then loop. That said, I am no image guru so ... — Zimoon 14:18, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Editing Help

How do you edit any page without completing CAPTCHA? Mpadilla0139 (talk) 16:09, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

That can/should not be done. — Zimoon 17:32, 15 January 2022 (UTC)