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I think we need to reorg the topics again, maybe consider:

   * Character »           (Hellis:how about "Adventuring" here)
         o Classes
         o Races
         o Traits
         o Skills
         o Stats 
         o Equipment

   * Monster Play »     
         o Classes
         o Races
         o Traits
         o Skills
         o Stats 
         o Equipment

   * Game Play »
         o Accomplishments   
         o Conjunctions
         o Quests
         o Raids            
         o Titles

   * Game Guides »
         o Getting started
         o Commands
         o Grouping    (?Social?
         o Music
         o Traveling

   * World »
         o Regions           
           o Cities   (like cities and instances? )
           o Instances
         o Creatures
         o Maps
         
   * Crafting 
         o Crafting Guide  (?move to game guide? heh )
         o Professions
         o Vocations
         o Resources    
 
   * Social   ? I assume this is what you meant of social?
         o List of Kinship
         o List of Realms

Secondary Topics: Pushed to bottom

   * Help (key pages on how to edit and search wiki)
   * Categories  (The back of the book category index)             
         o Crafting Items  
         o Game Items        
         o Quests

I think we should also add a category section and a help section

 -- hinney

It would be nice to create a couple of portals similar to this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Arts

Obviously, the main portal would be on this page and could link to the various subportals. A top "browsebar" like the following provides compact and at a glance navigation.

Each of those portals could map out their respective areas. Below that, the main portal could highlight some of the most important bits or recent new articles.

Thoughts?

--Hellis 14:10, 19 March 2007 (PDT)

looks better then the one we have now, more structured... i think i like it...
but i also think we are missing a lore section somewhere here, or did i miss something and we aren't going to cover famous personalities and places in here?

--Xander 16:53, 19 March 2007 (PDT)

There used to be a Lore section, but there are other wikis and various sources of information for the Lord of the Rings lore that the game is based on. If anything we would just link to them. But a front page link for something that will only link to another site seemed strange. Any thoughts?

-- skeeve?

ok seems fair, has it already been decided which wiki- or ardapedia is going to be used?
we shouldn't forget though that there are going to be characters in game that weren't in any books: Skorgrim and all of the Dourhands comes to mind and i don't remember them mentioned in any lets say canonical books =) (but i haven't read them all so i can err)

--Xander 18:03, 19 March 2007 (PDT)

We can add the lore section back.. Just it was one of those sections that nobody added too..

The portal idea looks great but might be a bit too soon for it? I don't think we have all sections worked out or enough pages to justify the portal. I can twist lotroadmin's arm and have him create the portal pagename if you want to create a sample. Also the portals have text that changes daily/weekly... and i'm not sure we are up to that yet. But i do like the idea of Portals.

--Hinney 19:31, 19 March 2007 (PDT)

/ouch Portal pagename added --Lotroadmin 21:14, 19 March 2007 (PDT)

Q - 'we shouldn't forget though that there are going to be characters in game that weren't in any books'. I was wondering if someone knows if the game is based only upon the story's of the hobbit and the lord of the rings or that they also used the appendixes that are included in the last book of lotr. And what about other middle earth books?

--Blakborn 04:16, 20 March 2007 (PDT)

- As far as I know, Turbine is only licensed to use IP/content found in The Hobbit and the LorR series. The Silmarillion and any other resources cannot be referenced by the game.

--Hellis 11:36, 20 March 2007 (PDT)

I find the heading "Monster" to be a bit too vague. Other possibilities are "Monster Play", "PvP", "PvMP", or "Player vs. Monster Player", the first one being my preference.

--Hellis 11:40, 20 March 2007 (PDT)

I agree, my first thought was that it was about general monsters. Only when looking at the subs i figured it must be monsters from monsterplay. So i also suggest 'Monster Play'.

--Blakborn 12:26, 20 March 2007 (PDT)

Ok switched to monster play. Hellis the Portal pagename exists if you want to work on our future main page. I think i will reorg the main page to how it is represented later tonight (PDT) if everyone thinks it's ok...

--Hinney 13:23, 20 March 2007 (PDT)

Yeah, I saw that Portal was created. I'm going to try to make some category refinements and make sure the organization is headed where we agree it should before starting work on the portals, because those will be fairly dependent on that. --Hellis 13:35, 20 March 2007 (PDT)

For organization purposes, should we have a main section, or portal, named "PvMP" or "Player vs. Player" and then list the "Monster Play", free people PvMP, and related topics under that? Monster Play suggests that it also relates to playing as a monster but we may want to group all PvP topics together under that same umbrella. The reason I suggest "Player vs. Player" is that it avoids the quite new and confusing PvMP abbreviation and also avoids the "PvP abbreviation which most new visitors would assume means regular player character pvp. Thoughts? --Hellis 13:42, 20 March 2007 (PDT)

I've updated the "reorg proposal" at top with my thoughts. The current organization seems to target the player who is familiar with LotRO and mmorpgs in general by placing the "min/max" info nearest the top. If we were targetting players unfamiliar with these topics we might place "Getting Started" or "World" at the top and introduce class, gameplay, and pvp topics later. I'm not really partial to either as long as we have a consistent plan. --Hellis 14:23, 20 March 2007 (PDT)

I'm still digesting your comments.. but I consider "adventuring" and "game play" to mean the same thing. In regards to if we are targeting noobs or leets I think we would want it presentable to both. Maybe the Game Guides and World should be on the left with character, game play, monster play on the right? --Hinney 14:38, 20 March 2007 (PDT)

Game play is a pretty generic term for me. Crafting involves game play, fighting involves game play, and pretty much anything you do in game could be considered game play. I guess I follow the "spheres" line of thinking where you have a single character who does multiple things (adventuring, crafting, playing music or other social junk) so if you have a crafting section you need an adventuring section. We currently have "Game Play" for that need but before that the "Character" section presents a lot of "Adventuring" specific stuff like classes.

From a game play perspective, this is how I think of it.

                              +-- Classes
                              |
              +-- Adventuring-+-- Adventuring Equipment
              |               |
              |               +-- Stats
              |
              |               +-- Professions
              |               |
 Character----+-- Crafting----+-- Vocations
              |               |
              |               +-- Crafting Equipment
              +-- Social
              +-- Etc.

However, I grant that many players may just look at it as "game play" equals adventuring and "crafting" is that mini-game stuff in the addendum.

--Hellis 14:59, 20 March 2007 (PDT)

I took another stab at it incorporating your feedback. For me everything revolves around the character or monster character. Just between us i think adventuring has different meanings... This is how I think of MMORPGs:

 Game           Topic/Spheres     Detail

                              +-- Classes
                              |
                              +-- Adventuring Equipment
                              |
              +-- Character---+-- PvP Equipment
              |               |
              |               +-- Stats
              |               |
              |               +-- Traits
              |
              |
              |               +-- Professions
              |               |
 MMO(LOTRO)---+-- Crafting----+-- Vocations
              |               |
              |               +-- Crafting Equipment
              |
              +-- Social
              +-- Quest
              +-- PvP
              +-- Instance/Raids
              +-- World

I think Character(defined as class, race, stats, skills, traits), PvP, Instances/Raids and Crafting to be the main topics. Social, World/Region and Quests are important and I think we need to list the key topics like accomplishments, titles and music. I know some gamers don't care about crafting while others want to look like a dreamy night elf and others want to have the best gear or the most kills. I want to be that dreamy night elf, with epic gear, highest pvp rank, completed all the quests and know all the recipes for my professions.

--Hinney 16:24, 20 March 2007 (PDT)

Upon reflection I think that spheres are more of a EQ2/Vanguard thing. Turbine is pretty clear that crafting is something that adventurers do as a supporting task and is not a stand-alone activity so my perspective probably doesn't fit very well here. I just wanted to throw some ideas out there but what you detailed above is quite reasonable.

By the way, by "spheres" I mean types of activity (crafting, fighting, trading with players, just goofing off). I thought "Character" identified aspects of the player character (race, class, stats). Anyway, carry on... :D

--Hellis 16:41, 20 March 2007 (PDT)

Notices

I just got word from domain/dns service provider of denial-of-service attacks recently. Let me know if you have any major outages and for how long... Please post them in the User_talk:Lotroadmin --Lotroadmin 22:15, 20 March 2007 (PDT)

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