User talk:Savitara

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Moria Deed revamp

We are duplicating efforts Moria Deeds and Category:Moria Deeds I didn't know you were working on this section. Here is the history of the work I am doing, Talk:Moria Deeds and Lotro-Wiki.com:Deeds. Lets work together. I am adding more sections Matthew.zellmer (talk) 20:06, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Promise I'm not trying to step on your toes :D Found a nice updated deed log and wanted to share the love. I actually just left a message at Talk:Moria Deeds but it didn't seem to populate on the recent discussions. I already have most of the data ready for all deed tables at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12GO9gfPPVWA_IWxwHW4JHrHnDbSo4GAGp8RFoqc-9GA, only field I need to add is the wiki page link (to go for full details). I added a few already on the deed categories (and a few classes), ex: Category:The Shire Deeds. I'm just copying the data to excel and adding some column for wiki table separators, paste into the editor and voila. Faster than manually adding lol. I decided to only link the name itself as otherwise the data size just gets bigger and figured there was no reason to add load time. I think I'm done adding any more tables today though, my eyes are a bit buggy x) --Savi (talk) 20:15, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
I hear that. I like your approach, keeping everything on a single page is much better then having a category page and another static index page. That was my original plan but I was still updating all the region deed categories, got stuck on Moria right now. Were you planning on putting Instance Deeds in your tables? I broke Instances into separate tables. To create some space and allow TOC to work. Matthew.zellmer (talk) 20:25, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
The instance deeds are listed in the google doc, yup; feel free to copy and paste it if you wish, I was postponing those, heh. There are about 400 of them in total...I'd originally thought to just make one table but that is getting quite long...I would recommend separating them by their sub-categories (deed-log tabs): Shadows of Angmar Deeds, Mines of Moria Deeds, Scourge of Khazad-dûm Deeds, Tower of Dol Guldur Deeds, In Their Absence Deeds, Rise of Isengard Deeds, & The Road to Erebor Deeds. A separate page per instance/region imo would be unnecessary, some may warrant it but others have only a few. --Savi (talk) 20:33, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
Rereading your question...did you mean adding the instance ones to the moria area ones? I hadn't planned on it as there are found under different locations in the deed log, though could put a link to the moria instance category (or wherever they end up) on the page. Your thoughts? --Savi (talk) 20:40, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
I have been mulling this over for a good bit, please review User:Matthew.zellmer#Moria_Deed_Revamp and Talk:Moria_Deeds#Notes_from_User:Magill.2FProjects-Update_07-Moria_Revamp_20_May_2014. I came up with a solution: double categorization. Since the wiki categorizes things by region, that needs to be done. So all instance deeds and deeds in a region need to be added (e.g. Category:Moria Instance Deeds but in addition we need to show deeds like they are shown in LOTRO, which uses the Deed log tabs described above, so this requires a separate category, one for each LOTRO deed log tab Category:Scourge of Khazad-dûm Instance Deeds and Category:Mines of Moria Instance Deeds. Then all of this needs to be crammed into a single page somewhere and organized. And you found the perfect place to summarize the deeds in the category pages. Take a look at the Moria Deeds page, it has one of everything including the Instance deeds with explanations.
Why don't we move the Moria Deeds data into the category page, deconflict it, and add the instances as separate tables like the Moria Deeds page does Matthew.zellmer (talk) 15:12, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
I very much like your categories for the different instance tabs. I understand what you are saying about the wiki being very region based (even though instances can be entered anywhere). The only issue with multiple big tables on one page is that readers may not like the crazy length. There could be the one table, with a sentence/link to the Moria instance deed category with that table retained over there, etc. Moria Deeds has a plethora of information but seems a bit overly busy to me. Would grouping the different moria instances together under one table (and then adding a column to specify which) be an option? If you would prefer to keep them separated then they probably do not need to be sortable tables (more space for those and you can see all rows at once anyway mostly). Regarding the meta deeds...is there a reason they have their own separate table? If you want to keep them separate then there is no reason to add the column 'type' for those. Also, please take these comments as some feedback only; I will let you be the final judge on what the outcome should be here as you have been working on deeds for awhile ;) --Savi (talk) 15:36, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
great comments. This is a group effort :) I was just trying to navigate the Moria Deeds page and your right, its WAY to much stuff. I think your right about the Instance tables, we can group um together into a single table. Meta-deeds can be grouped into the table as well, I was toying with the different formats and structures. I was trying to make use of the ToC with so much data. But it can be condensed a lot. Let me know when your done working on the Category:Moria Deeds page and then I will add my combined instance deeds table and the instance categorization notes Matthew.zellmer (talk) 16:31, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
Category:Moria Deeds is done as far as I know. I originally thought to add item/skills/other rewards to the table, but after visually seeing it, decided it was too wide that way. So I decided to thin it to the columns present there. It is an overview afterall, with the deed links there if you want all the details. Are you going to put the combined instance deeds table on Category:Mines of Moria Instance Deeds and then put a link to that page on Category:Moria Deeds? Also, just realized there is a dup category present: Category:Mines of Moria Instance Deeds and a Category:Moria Instance Deeds. --Savi (talk) 16:55, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
I will, that's sounds like a really good idea to put the combined instance table in the Category:Moria Instance Deeds. I will do that. SO lets talk about the duplicate instance categories. I put them there cause that's what the LOTRO deed log Instance tab bookmarks are called. I wanted to match up the deed log bookmarks but also retain the wiki by-region structure. SO I did both. But it looks confusing.. so I put the two bookmark-named Instance categories inside the Category:Moria Instance Deeds and added some comments at the top so folks will understand why its build this way. What do you think? Matthew.zellmer (talk) 18:16, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
Trying to straighten this out in my head...am I interpreting correctly that one category represents the deeds appearing on the in-game deed log tab, and the other represents all deeds that exist inside instances within the moria area? If so, are there any examples of where one would be part of one category and not the other? --Savi (talk) 18:33, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
Hmm... yes. Category:Scourge of Khazad-dûm Instance Deeds are related to Lothlórien in addition to Moria. But this is not the only case or region where this is a problem, just think about Category:Shadows of Angmar Deeds where the deed log has a single place to store these Instance deeds but that one bookmark covers numerous regions. More importantly (I think) is recognition by users, people just tying to find things. Users (like me) will come looking by region but also by Instance. So I want to be able to have a category that fits in with the regions Category:Moria Instance Deeds and the Instances Category:Scourge of Khazad-dûm Instance Deeds and Category:Mines of Moria Instance Deeds. Oohhhh my brain hurts. Maybe I should just use redirects. Matthew.zellmer (talk) 19:51, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
Now with the scourge and shadows of angmar tab that is very true, but the 2 moria instances categories might just cause more confusion than anything else. The others I can see a good argument for adding region categories. Speaking of categories...its up to you but adding regional meta deed categories is going to be a lot of work for the output. You could just have a meta deed category and then note(or later list) that they span different regions. Some regions only have like 3 meta deeds anyway, not sure it warrants its own category.
Totally understand the brain pain...after I started editing around here I thought I could do some organizing...brain pain explosion as you have now experienced :) Which is why it would be OH so amazing if I could figure out a way to take a huge table and have pages call that information based on keywords. So one huge deed table could make all these function then. The user would simply check the box for region, or deed tab, etc and search. I made a simple cosmetic site using that type of table/searching, but I was unable to find a way to adopt it here :/ Wish there were more ways for automation! I applaud your work on adding all these numerous categories to the existing pages! I just can't do it anymore I get too depressed x) --Savi (talk) 20:27, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
Didn't see your full mines of moria instance deed list so I just added one at Category:Mines of Moria Instance Deeds, feel free to change it as you see fit (or overwrite it or whatever) --Savi (talk) 18:25, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
No problem. I think your right about the meta-deeds. I don't want to create a meta-deed category for each of the regions. The Moria region only has 3 deeds but the instances in Moria have a lot so I think an instance meta-deed category might be useful, look here for examples Category:Meta Deeds and Meta-deeds. Yes there are duplicate categories hmm.... I should remove some. Give me some times and I will figure this out. It seems my dual-category idea isn't working as planned. Matthew.zellmer (talk) 18:42, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

I might be changing my mind here. What if we put all of the Instance Deeds grouped by Instance itself, not be the LOTRO deed log bookmark. So in Category:Instance Deeds the sub categories would be instances by name instead of the current grouping. This could be very useful. It would also allow me to add these Instance specific categories to the regional deeds Instances category Category:Moria Instances. I think players can relate to the specific instance anyway even thou things are grouped a bit differently in the LOTRO deed log. What do you think? Matthew.zellmer (talk) 11:46, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Having the instance specific identifier is a great idea, and actually already included in the instance tables I posted. For example, on Category:The Road to Erebor Deeds & Category:Scourge of Khazad-dûm Instance Deeds, the sub-category is appropriately named for the deed-log tab name, but the Loc field is the specific instance name (meta deeds don't have one as they are a combination). So both fields are taken care of :) If you feel the need to break down such tables into sections of other kinds, that would probably be best done on the name page itself rather than the category page (then you could have a one view look and a breakdown available if so desired). --Savi (talk) 13:13, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
I don't think we are talking about the same thing here. I am adding Instance specific categories for each Instance. So for example Category:The Road to Erebor Deeds will have several sub-categories, one for each instance. I am doing this for several reasons: the primary reason is to allow users to find the instances by region. Another reason is to allow me to build a category with all things related to the instance (mobs, deeds, titles, quests, e.g. Category:Dark Delvings),which can be used for a host of cool things like categorytrees. By the way, this should work seamlessly with the tables you are adding to the regional deed category pages and instance category pages. My thought on the 23 of May was to change the way Category:Instance Deeds are sub-categorized. I was suggesting we change it over from the current LOTRO by-deed-log-tab-name category structure to a by-regional category structure, so its like the rest of the wiki. Or even do both, for example right now there is a Category:Moria Instances category AND the Mines of Moria category, so users can find stuff using either method. Matthew.zellmer (talk) 15:06, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
I think I follow you...Rather than change the one big table on the root category, you are adding subcategories, with additional tables there, correct?. Adjusting the technical categories makes sense wiki-wise (no reason to have a category for region/instance AND a category for deed-log tab)If that means categories now present will be removed let me know and I can move the deed-log tab tables to a better location. The tables I've been adding have columns labeled cats/subcats, but that is just deed-log information, not wiki categories, so no changes there. --Savi (talk) 17:00, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
I like the tables you have been adding. I don't plan on adding any tables at all. Well, except the Moria one I already built, cause I really like it. :) I am going to move the instance table from Moria Deeds page to Category:Moria Instance Deeds (thanks for leaving it open for me :). You have the summary deed tables well in hand and the only thing I might do is add some links and virtue pictures. I like the virtue icons. That aside, I am really after your thoughts on the re-categorization of the deeds. You bring up a good point, since the tables are already labeled by LOTRO by-deed-log-tab-name category structure it seems silly to change the Instance-deed categories structure over to a by-region structure. Gonna leave them alone and disconnect the single Moria region I put in the Category:Instance Deeds, no prob. Keep up the good work Matthew.zellmer (talk) 19:45, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
I like the virtue pictures as well...but not necessarily in the table. Not sure how that affects size/loading and the ordering if viewers wanted to sort by virtue, will have to test that on yours. I personally like the simplicity for an overview table, just one link to see more details. Tables where things are explained with more detail (normal pages not at-a-glance category pages) seem a better place for numerous links and images. But again, just my 2 cents ;) You are familiar with the current categorization system for deeds much more than I, the wiki categories have often grated my nerves, so I tend to avoid doing much editing with them. If Instance-deed categories are already present I would say there is no reason to remove them. If you want to add any additional ones I'd say go for it if you want to spend the time. As I've been adding the wiki links to my google doc I've noticed some deeds are categorized 'correctly' and others aren't; there are some where the 'correct' category is debatable. For example, The Water Wheels: Nalâ-dûm seem like a moria instance, but it's included in the lothlorien quest pack. So where should it be categorized...both? For how much consistency would be lovely, its just not very feasible for the wiki as there are so many different editors all contributing over time with different views on the 'correct' categorization. xD --Savi (talk) 13:53, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
I hear that! When I started this project it was just to organize all the deeds that were misplaced or not even added to the main regional deed category. I didn't even really think about the sub-category of deeds. Now I am compiling a list and will end up putting it on the Deed, category deed, boilerplate deed, project deed, template deed and every other related deed page. LOL. Any input on the Category:Deeds organization will be welcome. Matthew.zellmer (talk) 19:13, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
Heh, sounds good to me! It will be good to have all the deed connections/links in one place/list. All the categories and templates and boilerplates, etc have their uses...but when you are trying to update a topic its time consuming trying to find all the pages with a reference xD Unfortunately I just don't have the time right now to delve into the deed template myself, but that is where I would start if I was categorizing. Then if you start some and change your mind its WAY less manual editing, just one change on the template :) Looking at Category:Deeds, my first thought is I would rather see the subcategories such as By Location(Region and Instance/Skirm under that), By Deed-Log Category, maybe a By Virtue...or a By Type (slayer, meta). Basically broader headers that organize what is currently being shown...But though that sounds simple to my eyes, I know it would be a TON of work to implement. 8] --Savi (talk) 19:26, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Continued Deed Category Revamp

Savi take a look at the Category:Deeds, I have done a bit of work on it, its not done but its better. I intend to add some more of your recommendations as time permits. Matthew.zellmer (talk) 15:38, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Looks good! You have certainly done a lot of work in the deeds department!--Savi (talk) 16:06, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Deed Summery tables updates

Hey! I ran into a couple deeds that are mis-categorized in the tables (e.g. The Survivors of Wildermore: Final marked as a Quest type deed but its a Meta-Deed). I know you have a master spreadsheet with all the data on it. I don't want to mess things up, so do you want me to update the master spreadsheet or the table or I could just list the deeds here. What would you like? Matthew.zellmer (talk) 12:56, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Yeah my data has it listed as a Lore type rather than a meta deed, and no fear on messing anything up ;) I just found that data and wanted to make it useful. If it works for you, when you find errors like that feel free to correct the overview table here on the wiki, but also make a note of it here if you would please, Thanks! I'll eventually get back to compiling the rest of the tables, but getting ready for a trip, so won't be for awhile I'm afraid. --Savi (talk) 13:31, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
Sure thing. Have a good trip. Matthew.zellmer (talk) 11:44, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
* Category:East Rohan Deeds are a bit squirrely, the Hytbold deeds category is a group of deeds that provide Item:Token of Hytbold, and all sorts of other thing, its NOT just a list of deeds that are related to the rebuilding of Hytbold proper. So I am working thru the deed categories now putting them in there proper places and will update the table's REBUILD listed deeds once complete Matthew.zellmer (talk) 16:59, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
* Category:West Rohan Deeds table only has a couple of things
** Survivor of the Long Night is a quest deed
* Category:Bree-land Deeds changed One Thing Drives Out Another to a Lore Deed
*Category:East Rohan Reputation Deeds added reputation deeds to the table... wait a minute none of the tables have reputation deeds, did you not want them here?
I chose not to include them in the overview tables as the deeds are located on the rep tab of the deed-log not the regions themselves. They are all listed at Category:Reputation Deeds --Savi (talk) 15:50, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
Ok sure thing. I wont add them to the tables then. Matthew.zellmer (talk) 20:46, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Working on Reputation Deeds, require your input

Please see discussion Template talk:Deed#Reputation Faction template change Matthew.zellmer (talk) 15:33, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Cosmetic Clothing

Hey if you are still around give me a shout out please! I want to re-work out cosmetic pages / information but saw you did a lot of work on it in the past. Rogue (talk) 23:00, 24 February 2018 (UTC)