User talk:Adelas

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A big welcome back! You are promoted to editor rank--Lotroadmin (talk) 17:49, 17 September 2011 (EDT)

.... :-O! *kowtow* *blush* -Adelas (talk) 17:59, 17 September 2011 (EDT)

Promoted to Admin! Thanks :) --Lotroadmin (talk) 22:06, 6 February 2012 (EST)
Glad that you've found me fit for duty :) Thanks again :) - Adelas (talk) 22:57, 6 February 2012 (EST)

Hi & welcome to the wiki :)
On incomplete quests please put the stub near the top so it is immediately obvious to anyone browsing the page that it is unfinished. The heading for which you do not have text are best left blank imho (it does at least leave it consistent with other unfinished quests). The text can be copy-and-pasted in from the game if you'd like to add it. DancesInTrees 01:11, 1 November 2007 (PDT)

Chat Meeting

Hello Adelas,
this is a reminder that there is a Chat Meeting scheduled for next Saturday (August 16th) at the usual time. You can find out more in the Contributor's Corner, as well as the Announcement on the Forums. I'm hoping that this time we will see a larger attendance so that we can discuss some of the topics on everyone's mind and work out our plans for MoM. --Fedaykin 17:22, 8 August 2008 (PDT)

Ack! Someone changed my user page... how can I fix it?

My username Adelas and it just so happens that my charname is Adelas too. I think I understand now - I need to make a separate wiki-user-description-page called User:Adelas, which does not contain my character bio and description, and then a lotro-char-description page called User:Adelas/Adelas. Is this correct? And if so, how can I fix the current charpage, which is incorrectly typed as User:Adelas/Aldelas?

Furthermore, do we have a template for the actual USER pages (ie the real person who is editing this lotrowiki?

Also, you may have gathered I'm pretty new to this, so I apologize in advance for my mistakes, and thanks DancesInTrees for correcting my problems with the stubs I entered yesterday. I just wanted to clarify that the reason I left the objectives blank, even though I know what they are, is because I didn't have the actual text that shows in the quest dialog, and I didn't want to write them incorrectly.

Thanks again.

Sorry for the typo *blush* I hope I've fixed it now. You can move pages using the "move" tab above ^ . There is currently no template for user pages - we all use them (or not) pretty much as we choose.
You can see changes on the "Recent Changes" to the left <-- or the "history" tab above ^ .
The easiest way to fill in the quest info is to have the game running windowed & copy (ctrl+c) & paste the text in. It gets tedious though so although I've done a fair few I get bored after a while ;)
Please sign your comments using the button above or ~~~~. DancesInTrees 09:06, 1 November 2007 (PDT)

Quick Note

Please put the categories at the top - it makes them so much easier to find later - and it's [[Category:Instance Quests|{{PAGENAME}}]]. Thanks DancesInTrees 10:16, 1 November 2007 (PDT)

Sigh! I'll get my act together, I promise. --Adelas 10:36, 1 November 2007 (PDT)
Four years later, and the standard is now "categories at the bottom." <sheepish grin> Sethladan 22:58, 14 October 2011 (EDT)
DOH! I missed this the other day. you got it, boss. -21:19, 19 October 2011 (EDT)

You've been Ninja'd

That's a good thing :). It means you can now delete pages (but check "what links here" first! unless you just created it wrongly) if necessary; and possibly one or 2 other extras but I don't recall exactly what. DancesInTrees 00:45, 6 November 2007 (PST)

Hmm, we can delete pages? I thought it was just protect and move, unless I missed the delete option somewhere. Oh, and congratulations Adelas :D --Fedaykin 08:21, 6 November 2007 (PST)
Wow! Glad you said it was a good thing, because at first I thought it meant I got whacked! :) Thanks!! --Adelas 11:19, 6 November 2007 (PST)
Um, so I went to a page that needed deleting (I had previously confirmed this) and found no button or direction on deleting the page. Also don't know how to identify or use my other mad ninja skills. Help?--Adelas 08:42, 7 November 2007 (PST)
Judging by what both you and Fedaykin have said I got that wrong :( - it just shows up as an extra tab for me. I think then you just get "protect" (which is rarely used), and ... do you see the red exclamation marks on the recent changes page? You can just ignore it but it's a method of showing what has been "screened" by another editor & what hasn't. DancesInTrees 09:45, 7 November 2007 (PST)

Coming back

Hi there Adelas :)
Nevermind my previous comment - I just logged back in and noticed that my old kinship was actually still going, and since they don't have a significant raid attendance policy anymore and don't raid too much, so I've decided to go back and rejoin them.
However, if you ever need a champion to beat some stuff up or run some instances, I'd be more than happy to help out when I can. I've added you to my friends list. :) --Fedaykin 14:11, 9 November 2007 (PST)

Relative Difficulty

I noticed you incorrectly placed "Elite" into most of the Relative Difficulty fields of the Mob Infobox. In general, that field is designed to give players a better idea of how difficult a boss will be. Naturally it has little relevance for mobs, which are usually just tank-n-spank with one minor ability. In these cases (which will be very many) just put "Very Easy" for creature difficulty. If the mob actually has a few abilities or effects that players need to watch out for and could become quite difficult (such as many of the pulls in The Rift), then those could be labeled as "Easy". If you'd like a little more information on how to judge mob/boss difficulty, check out the (temporary) guideline.

Oh, and I'd like to direct your attention to Talk:Fornost. --Fedaykin 08:45, 10 November 2007 (PST)

Congrats :)

Big congratulations *hugs* Go on, you can tell us ;) - gender, name, weight? DancesInTrees 23:45, 1 March 2008 (PST)

The little bugger finally came out eh, congratulations! =D --Fedaykin 08:40, 2 March 2008 (PST)
Aw he's a cutie :) DancesInTrees 03:50, 28 July 2008 (PDT)


First Adelas edits in almost three years! I don't think we've ever met (I haven't even been around for a year), but welcome back anyway. :) Sethladan 12:38, 18 August 2011 (EDT)

Thanks for the warm welcome back. I actually came here looking for the walkthrough on that solo quest, and when it wasn't there - but was basically accurate elsewhere - I thought, someone other than me is going to want to know this... and... hey, I can tell them! I guess it's also time to update my user page. Thanks for the reminder! and now I forgot how to sign stuff like you did up there, so I'll write it out by hand: Adelas 14:10, 18 August 2011 (EDT)
Oh, ahem, it was higher up on this page. Testing.... Adelas (talk) 15:23, 18 August 2011 (EDT)
Want to agree with Seth there for the welcome! And would like to add that you're also very welcome to join our #Lotro-wiki IRC while contributing! There's usually some online to chat with and ask things. Can't speak for the rest, but I promise that at least I won't bite! ^^ --Ravanel (talk) 13:20, 19 August 2011 (EDT)


Seems like something went wrong at Resources with transcluding the Crops page. Some subtitles don't use the wiki code correctly. Just something I noticed while strolling through the wiki, and I thought you were busy with that. Good luck with all the complicated coding! --Ravanel (talk) 05:44, 19 September 2011 (EDT)

Thanks Ravanel; someone mentioned about that happening on the quest pages, and i thought at the time i ought to fix it, but never quite got to it until you reminded me just now. i used the font size workaround. maybe if we get better at this complicated stuff, we can figure out how to use them as real section dividers so there's a toc, but until then it at least shows up formatted correctly on both pages. -Adelas (talk) 05:52, 19 September 2011 (EDT)


Hey, I read on Zimoon's epistle that you wanted to create a category for shards and wanted advice. Now I think a category for such a thing is not really necessary (categories are more for wiki editors and pages for visitors), I think it's better to make a page for it if it's meant for visitors. Another option is to add a small box down the page, like as is done with these Gift Boxes: Item:Decorative Gift Box (Example at the bottom of the page). This shows that items are connected in a clear way and links directly to those connected item pages. It is also less work than creating a page. Just some ideas. --Ravanel (talk) 05:18, 3 October 2011 (EDT)


Hi, I saw you added descriptions to some of the Hunter legacies. Thanks for filling them in, but could you add them to the description variable of the template like this? It looks pretty much exactly the same, but if its in the template then it means any changes to the template will keep all pages looking the same rather than having to change each page individually :). Amphoras (talkTalk to me!) 05:29, 3 October 2011 (EDT)

Thank you for letting me know how I was supposed to use that. I just assumed that anything that goes in the template is supposed to be "official" and there doesn't appear to be an official, in-game description on a legacy, so I made them up from scratch. I'll be careful to put them in the right place from now on -- and Please do correct me if I'm wrong and there is an official description somewhere that I should be cutting and pasting instead of writing my own! -Adelas (talk) 15:34, 3 October 2011 (EDT)
Nah, what you were doing is fine. Don't know of any official description if there is one, that variable was just created so we could give an idea of what the legacy does. Amphoras (talkTalk to me!) 17:23, 3 October 2011 (EDT)

Crafting: Who's on First?

In attempting to add Westfold Crafting information and "Guild Hall" information to Galtrev and related pages I have hit a bunch of problematic problems :)

I'm not certain just what you are working on. So to avoid stepping on toes, a couple of questions

Is there a way to find out (other than the gross search):

  1. Who is working on crafting pages? Anybody besides you? I just "stumbled" into it so I don't have a good feel for what is happening.
  2. When were they last updated? (Some appear to be "really old" in style and clearly are missing content.
  3. Does somebody actively (or even "recently") have a "Plan" for these pages. ie ... how accurate/current is:
* - AKA General Help Crafting -- but wich is different from Help Help:Crafting Guidelines - Creating Crafting Pages and
* Boilerplate:Crafting vs Template:Crafting, etc. (i.e. all of the documentation and tools "stuff.")

Another one I just stumbled across that illustrates the problems/issues I've encountered ... Crafting Hall of Ost Galadh -- on that page the "NPC names" were "linked" -- but there were no pages associated with those links --- however, none of the "professions" were "linked" -- which do have pages (or at least sort of have pages, i.e. out of date and "old style" pages - no transclusions) ... sigh! I just switched them around. (The page hadn't been touched since 2010.) ... and some of the names are now different... Expert Farmhands have become Expert Farmers, sigh, thank you Turbine. (So we have to sort those names out on the Wiki.)

And then there is the whole "issue" of the "transcluded" pages... I've listed them on my ROI page mentioned above. There very existence is well hidden and clearly not used where possible.... but represent a VERY useful idea and structure which needs to be expanded. As ROI introduces the concept of a "Craftguild's Hall". Craft-hall of Esteldín seems to make best use of these, and now Crafting Hall of Ost Galadh makes use of them also. Needed are all the "Guild Titles" -- Leader, Recipe, legendary,

Related questions:

  1. Why is there a "missing content" tag on the page Critical success
  2. What is the purpose of Category:Stubs/Crafting as it seems to have "some stuff," but missing a lot is this a "new project?"

I've shifted a few pages that were "double categorized" in the top level as well as in their sub-category (i.e. eliminated them from showing in the top level list of pages. I've also moved pages into Category:Crafting Facilities which were not in the crafting tree at all.

I also started a bit of a "who's who" in categories, etc on that ROI page.

Phew, this is all getting to me... got to go kill some wargs or half-orcs or something to let off steam ... Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC (talk) 18:07, 4 October 2011 (EDT)

Goingbald and Rubyctook are our local crafting people, so any ongoing projects (aside from you two), you can check with them. "View History" is your best friend for seeing how recently something's been updated, although certainly not fool-proof. You might also check with Project:Crafting; not sure how well-maintained that is, but bringing it up to date could help others wanting to chip in. Good luck! I'd love to do crafting stuff, but so many other things demanding attention...sigh. :) Sethladan 19:37, 4 October 2011 (EDT)
Basically all that I've been working on is:
*SLOWLY updating the profession pages and vocation pages (Woodworker and Metalsmith... or is it Weaponsmith?... two of them, anyway, are not yet completely matching the others.)
*Resources - I started working on them, then RoI came out and one thing led to another and distracted me. Thus, the Crops page still doesn't have its last two tables complete. I do intend to do this but would never be offended if someone beat me to it.
*I enter in new items/recipes when I have screenshots; I recently added all 5-6 of the new "automatically granted" scholar recipes.
As for the page Critical success; basically I realized that the page did not exist and created it but it was extremely brief. I think I just forgot to remove the Stub marker- or more accurately, I forgot that I put it in there, and assumed someone else had. (haha).
Stubs/Crafting... I think I had a crafting stub and discovered the category afterward and added it in; that is the extent of my involvement with that template/category.
Thanks for removing double categories, and if I was the one who duplicated them, sorry!
When I get a moment, I'll be sure to look through your page and comment and/or alter my proceedings accordingly. Thanks for letting me know the page was there. --Adelas (talk) 01:37, 5 October 2011 (EDT)
I noticed a link to Boilerplate:Crafting in here. I would like to see that boilerplate deprecated in favor of Boilerplate:Recipe which is identical, at least very much. It is used by Create new recipe as well, so in fact not much is using the Crafting boiler. Just wanted to hail you :) (EDITED) -- Zimoon (talk) 11:51, 23 October 2011 (EDT)

Dunlending Captain

To answer your question on the Talk Page: yes! Just make a new page for it. -- Starbursty (talk) 23:41, 9 October 2011 (EDT)

Reinforced Leather Dunlending Gauntlets

I was cleaning up some pages and found Reinforced Leather Dunlending Gauntlets as well as Item:Reinforced Leather Dunlending Gauntlets existent. Is there a specific reason the former is there? You created it only a few days ago, so I'm sure you remember. --Ravanel (talk) 10:17, 14 October 2011 (EDT)

I found that the create item page was not working, and I attempted to make the page by hand. Unfortunately, using the template so often has gotten me lazy and I forgot the right way to name an item page. I thought I did a search before creating the page, but it's entirely possible that I forgot to search for that one; I was creating a whole bunch of items at a time and I may have simply missed the "check first" on that one. The non "item" version should definitely be deleted. -Adelas (talk) 16:16, 14 October 2011 (EDT)

Zapped it. :) Is that create-a-page thing working again? I didn't realize so many people used those tools, else I'd pay more attention to keeping them in shape, heh! And no worries; we all get lazy and make goofs like that. Sethladan 16:50, 14 October 2011 (EDT)
It is not. For instance, I just searched for Item:Warrior's Thick Brass Earring (and i tried it w/o the "item:") and got no result. So I used the Create Item link, entered in the name, and got this url: .... but that page won't load. my browser (FF7) stops "loading" the page in, but it's 100% blank. I get an Error 500 on IE.

-Adelas (talk) 16:56, 14 October 2011 (EDT)

This is happening because the page you are trying to create already exists. I just tried using it to make that item and got the same result, but when I type the name into the address bar, its because the page is already there: Warrior's Thick Brass Earring. If I use Create new item to create a page that doesn't exist (Warrior's Thick Brass for example), it works fine in Chrome, FireFox and IE9. Amphoras (talkTalk to me!) 17:13, 14 October 2011 (EDT)
When you searched for the Warrior's Thick Brass Earring, did you enter the full name and then search, or just watch the autocomplete dropdown? The latter, unfortunately (and the search itself, too!) has been misbehaving and/or taking a long time to update. According to the forums, Lotroadmin's working on it, heh. In the meantime, sorry about the frustration! Sethladan 17:25, 14 October 2011 (EDT)
Wow. That IS insanely frustrating since I just saved several dozen items' data and planned to enter them all in. I typed the item's full name, capitalized properly, into the search box, and hit enter. (It didn't appear in the dropdown) The search results said there was no page called that. When it didn't come up, I typed in the full name of the PAGE, including the "item:" part, just to be sure, into the search box. What I did NOT do was type the URL of the page into the address bar. So it looks like maybe SEARCH is acting up, and not the Create Item page.... ?! -Adelas (talk) 21:54, 14 October 2011 (EDT)
I will never ever ever accuse you of not trying hard enough before adding a page, wow. Major kudos for all your effort and I really hope we get this straightened out soon. :( Sethladan 22:02, 14 October 2011 (EDT)
This is one thing which needs to be "fixed" with ALL of the create templates -- if the page exists, the template simply hangs.... no error message or anything (Safari - same as FF apparently). Sometimes I remember that the failure to create a page means the page already exists... and then try to search for it, and sometimes I try to "guess" what the URL should be, but between not being able to spell or tyep ...:) ... It may be just because of all the new content for ROI, but it seems to happen "a lot." Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC (talk) 22:13, 14 October 2011 (EDT)
I'll make this my priority tomorrow. The "create new articles" tools use an extension that was last updated four and a half years ago, but for all I can tell, all the extension really does is make the pretty box. The real work (as some have noticed) is in the "fancy URL," and MediaWiki can understand that part without the extension. Give me a day to play with it and I'll see if I can put something together that accomplishes the same effect but puts you into the edit box if the item already exists. Not 100% sure I can do it, but I'll give it my best, heh. Sethladan 23:06, 14 October 2011 (EDT)

You have a new message.

Hrm, does watching a page work? I'm watching your page now! --Lotroadmin (talk) 22:52, 17 October 2011 (EDT)

Testing 1 2 3. --Skunark Kranuks (talk) 22:53, 17 October 2011 (EDT)
It doesn't show up as "you have a new message" but you can use an RSS reader to get the list of pages that changed on your watch list. --Lotroadmin (talk) 22:56, 17 October 2011 (EDT)

What I was thinking was more like, if I "flag" you somehow, it acts like a watched page, even if you weren't watching. It's pie in the sky but it would be a cool feature! -Adelas (talk) 01:41, 18 October 2011 (EDT)

The RSS feed idea "sort of" works... Main problem -- it requires that you need to be "logged in" to whatever your RSS reader is. But, I think, that is not what Adelas is looking for. .. for instance, the "new message" box pops-up on any refresh of any page you are editing while in the wiki. (I.e. it pops up on a "preview.") I happen to use Apple Mail as my RSS reader because, for whatever reason, Safari is incredibly inconsistent in its RSS processing. (And Safari supposedly supports both RSS and Atom, which is what the Wiki uses.) The basic "issue" from my point of view -- is the same problem I have with chat -- it takes launching and monitoring "yet another" program while editing something. ... and even with a 27 inch screen, the number of windows rapidly becomes irrational. ... sorry about that.:)
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC (talk) 12:57, 18 October 2011 (EDT)

Search engine

I'm sorry I missed your IRC message, I was tabbed out. Please ping me, then I'll not miss you again. Could it be that your problem has something to do with the time it takes for the database to update? In other words, were the items and quests you couldn't find added recently? Check this forum post [1] if you had not read that yet. --Ravanel (talk) 05:17, 20 October 2011 (EDT)

Uploaded Icons

Hi there. I noticed you uploaded loads of new icons today, good job! I have some tips for you that might help you in the process:

  • You can enter the appropriate file category right away in the Comments box while uploading ("[[Category:<Piece> Icons]]"). This way, your file automatically gets added to that category after being uploaded! Of course you don't *have* to do this, because some contributor is bound to stumble upon them sooner or later when cleaning up Uncategorized Images. It might be good to know the option exists though, as it saves others a lot of work.
Thank you- I thought that the "comments" thing would put text on the file "page"; sometimes I remember to go back and add it afterwards, but sometimes I forget. Good to know.
Well, that is exactly what is does, indeed. And guess what the effect is if you put the text "[[Category:Head Icons]]" on a file page.... ;-)
  • Some icons might look strangely familiar (e.g. compare File:Threadbare Cloak of the Dunland Healer-icon.png and File:Cloak 1 (uncommon)-icon.png). There are a LOT of icons that are used by multiple items in-game. We use generic icons for these (like Cloak 1 (uncommon)-icon.png). If you know that a similar icon is already there, it is best not to upload them, since they will have to be deleted and replaced by the correct generic icon anyway.
Headdesk! I WONDERED Why there was the option to change the icon name from the standard pagename-icon name. It should have been obvious. Thank you for letting me know about this.
  • Icons must be 32 x 32 pixels. Any icon not having these dimensions needs to be manually updated like I did here: File:Embroidered_Hood_of_the_Dunland_Healer-icon.png (you might need to force your browser to update in order to see the difference - ctrl + R, or whatever it is on a Windows pc). I can see you make icons yourself by trying to visually get the dimensions right. I have tried this as well, but you will always end up with some mistakes, and believe me, it is so much easier if you use a program that shows you the dimensions! I had the same problem when I started with uploading icons, but I'm now doing them easily with the free program GIMP (you can even make the invisible corners of skill icons with this program). If you need any help I'll gladly help you set it up. Please do not upload any icons that are not 32 x 32 px though, as they have to be corrected manually one by one (in which process they will also loose quality)!
I'll be more careful about this.

Those were my tips (sorry that they were so long). Don't take it the bad way, you're doing a great job on the wiki! Hopefully my tips will help you doing it even better. --Ravanel (talk) 06:23, 20 October 2011 (EDT)
I forgot to add: if you're not familiar with the file rules and how to edit screenshots, Help:Images is actually of much help! : ) --Ravanel (talk) 06:31, 20 October 2011 (EDT)

I'm pretty tough skinned. I appreciate constructive criticism :) -Adelas (talk) 16:49, 20 October 2011 (EDT)
Yay, keep to good work up! --Ravanel (talk) 07:17, 21 October 2011 (EDT)

Bracelet Icons

I noticed in the uncategorized images there's a bunch of bracelet items you've uploaded with the item names. We are doing our best to avoid using names of items for icons and moving to a generic name. This is to alleviate the same icon being uploaded over and over. The generic icons can be found on their category talk pages: example for your bracelet icons are found Category Talk:Bracelet Icons. Please look at the generic icons before uploading item icons. Thanks Rogue (talk) 16:54, 20 October 2011 (EDT)

Hehehe.... (points to previous section). Now that I know, I'll get it right. :) -Adelas (talk) 16:56, 20 October 2011 (EDT)

Rune-inscribed Brass Earring

Please see Item Talk:Rune-inscribed Brass Earring, re. Turbine's capitalization of this name.


Why making it like this [2]? Cause how "swift travel" was written before is what it actually looks like in-game (that's why I chose to write it like that for the stable-masters I once all added and updated). Of course, after you leave a project, people go on and use other forms again... -.- --Ravanel (talk) 02:53, 3 January 2012 (EST)

Jumping in on Adelas defence and taking all blame on myself. I am pretty sure he has seen me walking over some stable-masters in the Shire and Ered Luin and there I have used this layout and I have also transcluded it onto the Stable-master main page, the second half of it. I never thought of exactly how it looks like in-game, perhaps I should. However, I strongly believe that having destination + region is a must, not all players know exactly where a minor location is and then the region may help. Whether to have "swift" before or after anything else is nothing I care much for, that is possible to change and I have only used it for the Shire and Ered Luin stable-masters so that would be quick. But, it should indeed look the same for all the Stable-master entries :-)
While talking these tables I am sure the question will arise: Why not have fixed column widths? That would make the Stable-master page look even better.
Sure, but then the table must be even wider and I am not so sure that is a great idea on all pages these bits are transcluded to. Why? Because some entries are wider, but they occur in different columns. I had fixed columns to begin with but had to give up. Or to make the table wider.
Zimoon (talk) 15:54, 3 January 2012 (EST)
Had a look at the table and indeed I believe width 600 is better. The higher-level locations have more prerequisites so that column would compress the other columns. Name = 140 and region = 100 seems to suit most locations. Regarding "swift" ... either we try to look like in game all the way always, for everything, that would mean lost information in some cases. Whether "swift" is read within parentheses after the name or not is, in my humble opinion, irrelevant as long as the information is correct and that it is easily found. At the table we are discussing the information is crystal clear.
Thus, should we begin a religious war over in-game-look versus content-and-usability? :-)
Zimoon (talk) 16:23, 3 January 2012 (EST)
Let me throw a horse-shoe into the ring. I made a couple of all-in-one pages to see what they looked like: Travel Locations and Travel Routes. I am not suggesting them for use as public pages, but I find it very useful to have the complete travel routes in a single sortable table. There is no other simple way to view travel routes by destination. My travel routes table allows you to easily answer questions related to "How do I get there". When you can't sort by destination, you need to guess which stable-masters to check for a route to your destination.
But more on-topic. I would tend to prefer usable information instead of in-game identical information. I abhor the way the routes are sorted in the in-game stable-master lists. Is there any rhyme or reason to the way some of those lists are ordered? I suspect there is some hidden opaque sort-key in use, but that does not help me quickly and reliably find the right route. In most cases, I will take the swift route if I can, unless I intend to dismount part way along the route. (After about level 15, money is not a big consideration.) RingTailCat (talk) 17:02, 3 January 2012 (EST)
I'm guessing this started because of the massive number of new routes added with ROI...
For an answer to the question -- "How do I get there?" (and How much will it cost? and How long will it take?) take a look at the Lua "Travel Locations Reference" It is quite a useful resource, and includes far more information than we provide -- "List price, vs Discounted" and travel times, for example -- which exists for every route. (It also does route planning for you.) !
I note that the Line Lands entries (under Stable-master do not include Candaith's Encampment even though it includes "the other end" for Bree - Saeradan's Cabin. (Off the top of my head I can't think of any other "almost" one-way travel destinations. And, I'm assuming, in Evendim, the Kings Crossing stable point is missing as well as the other new Hobbit one north of Oatbarton (who's name I forget off hand) because the table hasn't been updated since the Evevndim re-write.
And, not only do higher levels, have more routes with differing pre-requisites, those routes have different pre-requisites on either end! Rivendell and Garth Forthnir for one... You can get there, but you can't get back!!!
I like RTC's "travel Spread Sheet"... too bad it isn't as easy to create and maintain!
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC (talk) 18:45, 3 January 2012 (EST)
I have seen your page at some point and I love them, why don't you create a page named "Stable-master Destinations -- Sortable"? Or something like that. We cannot have everything in one place/page but we can certainly provide the information at side-pages :)
Zimoon (talk) 19:34, 3 January 2012 (EST)

Wow. What a furor! I'm going to backtrack a little (not using ::::::: to start my paragraph)... Last night, I was going to add in some information that was missing from the Oatbarton stable-master. Since I was starting "from scratch", I tried looking at another stable-master page to copy the formatting. I pulled up the main stable-master page and I noticed three things:

  • The data on the "complete" list (ie, the "Stable-master" compilation page) did not always match what was on the individual stable-masters' pages (eg, Ladrochan) - some routes were available on one page and not available on the other.
  • The data on the Stable-master compilation page was formatted in at least half a dozen different ways.
  • One of the ways it was formatted was to transclude the individual stable-master tables into the page.

We've had discussions before about how transclusion allows us to reduce the number of pages that need to be updated whenever a change is necessary. I figured if they were all transcluded, they would all match and make the main page look pretty. Unfortunately, even then there were problems:

  • Different stable-masters were formatted differently, both visually different and different in the choice of information that they included.
  • As mentioned before, the data available didn't match.

So, I thought I would take it upon myself to start cleaning that up. I started with Ladrochan, because he's got one of the longest lists (and has some of the longest place names to visit). Since I suck at tables, it took me way, way, way longer than it was supposed to, and then I ended up on the Ost Forod page and ended up adding basically all the info for the NPCs and services there and... well, you all know how a "bunny trail" happens. So, that should answer "why are you touching this", and "why ladrochan"; as for "why did you choose the format you did?"

  • 1. I personally like the all-white format better, but
  • (a) when transcluded, the alternating-colors version makes a visual distinction where one location ends and the next begins
  • (b) the majority of stable-master individual pages were already using that type of table, and I assumed that meant it's the preferred look for those individual-page tables.
  • 2. I chose the format that included the most information.
  • (a) I personally like seeing the region column.
  • (b) I'm ambivalent about the "Swift travel yes/no" column, but I thought it might save space over typing out " - Swift Travel" on every line. However, once I'd seen it without ANY designation in the leftmost column, it looked a little confusing, so I added (Swift) back in to make those lines stand out a little bit from their slow-travel alternatives. It might make more sense to remove the "Swift yes/no" column, but on the other hand, it might be nice to be able to sort them in the future, and if the information is in a separate column that enables sorting by that column.
  • 3. Why 600 pixels? Because if they are to match - and if they are transcluded together onto the same page, we do want them to match - a number has to be chosen.
  • (a) Hopefully 600px will fit on the majority of people's screens, without being too tiny and causing crazy issues with wrapping for the majority of people. I know some people do still use 600x800 resolution, however rare they may be, and there are always those who use larger font size, but I think those people know to expect that tables will look "wrong" if viewed with alternate font sizes.
  • (b) What is the pixel width of the lotro-wiki menu at left? What is the pixel width of the floating menu on the stable-master page?
  • (c)Zim - I did enter fixed column widths, which added up to 600px, with the motivation of trying to force all the tables to line up nicely when/if they are transcluded onto a page together.
  • (d) Does anyone know if it's possible to align an entire column of cells in a wiki table? I couldn't find it on the wiki table help page - it seems like you can only align a whole ROW but not a whole COLUMN. That's why I have "cell spacing", because the "yes" and the coin value were crowded up too close to the left side, and I figured it would be WAY easier to do that than to type "align-center" on every single cell in each of the two small columns. I tried to choose a spacing value that gave some visual spacing horizontally without making the text be too far apart vertically.

Finally, some odds and ends:

  • RTC and WMM/Val: Wow, those are great resources. Thanks!
  • I have a question. In some cases, there is a "base" price for travel, but travel is not available until reputation is earned with a certain faction - which reduces the price. What this means is that nobody can ever pay the base price, but will ALWAYS, only ever pay the reduced price, because the only time you can travel there is after you have the travel discount. Swift from Rivendell to Lhanuch and CG to Lhanuch may be the only examples of this, but still. Should we put the "actual" price, or the reduced price (I lean toward the latter).

Opinions are always welcomed. I just figured if I explained why/how/what I had seen and done, that might clear things up. Thanks for reading all this. -Adelas (talk) 20:58, 3 January 2012 (EST)

Quick note on pricing. There can be multiple discounts. There are discounts for Faction rep, and for owning a house; not sure if they combine though. Do you have to pay the base price if you have a travel pass of some kind, one that gets past the rep and pre-req restrictions?
I'm not sure about bunny trails, but I do know about opening cans of worms! RingTailCat (talk) 03:25, 4 January 2012 (EST)
RTC: If you use the Lotro store travel pass, every route between stable-masters that you've ever visited is open and 100% free. This means that, for instance, if you're level 48, and you've been to 21st hall and Dolven-view, you can travel between those even though you're not level 50 (the pre-req for buying that travel route normally), but you can't take the horse to Chamber of Crossroads because you haven't got that stable-master yet. -Adelas (talk) 16:25, 4 January 2012 (EST)
Hehe, I just saw you edit something small that I thought was unnecessary and now you got this whole book written on your talk page, sorry! ^^
Whatever you do further with Stable-masters, I'm happy there's effort put into them. --Ravanel (talk) 05:33, 4 January 2012 (EST)
Reply to 3d) is "no". I have a memory that this was possible with plain HTML tables, but it is incompatible with wikimedia tables. Unfortunately cellspacing affects everything in a less than nice way, so "center" is better than that I think.
I added the "blue-print" I am using to Talk:Stable-master#Tentative Formatting if it is of any use.
Pricing is terrible because of the discounts, but as you mentioned, it does not really matter much for characters who aren't broke. And it seems to have been lowered and changed at some point after many stable-masters I have visited were edited. I don't like to leave it all out, but honestly, that info is almost negligible.
Zimoon (talk) 05:53, 4 January 2012 (EST)
Emphasis mine in the sentence above, so that anyone who is watching this page will know to go look at the stable-master talk page; I wrote in a section asking for your opinion about how to treat the Swift Travel stuff. -Adelas (talk) 17:04, 4 January 2012 (EST)
3d) is possible using CSS. Currently there's support for centering all cells (class="centerTable") or only the first in each row (class="centerTableFirst") as well as for top-aligning all cells vertically (class="topTable"). Adding new definitions would be pretty easy - take a look at the second-to-last section of Mediawiki:Common.css (admins only) or ask Goingbald or myself. Sethladan 06:52, 4 January 2012 (EST)
Hey Zim, can you link an example of a stable-master for whom the table/column widths are too wide/narrow? Thanks! -Adelas (talk) 16:32, 4 January 2012 (EST)
Just to make lines long again...:) With 3C/D ... ??
Not certain what you are asking... see User:Magill/Sandbox-2 all "Books" are transcluded from their Category page.... all lined up nicely. The transclude, however, is not a table itself.
Or maybe Glân_Vraig the Vendors are transcluded tables.
I use "align=" syntax on a column by column basis within a row. Tailor Westfold Recipe Index#Light Armour (Théodred's Riders) for an example
What I was hoping was to write align=center or align=right only ONCE, at the top of the column, and have every cell within that column match that setting. What I do NOT wish to do is write align=center on every single cell all the way down the entire column. Maybe we can look into doing it with CSS. -Adelas (talk) 02:31, 7 January 2012 (EST)
If somebody finds a way to just that I am thrilled to know about it, but this far I have just heard that it ain't possible :(
Zimoon (talk) 04:44, 7 January 2012 (EST)
Someplace either Seth or EoD and I (I think) had a discussion about screen sizes with ?Lotroadmin? chiming in with actual stats -- If I recall correctly over 50% of the visitors to the site have screen resolutions of 1200 or larger. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Magill (Contribs • User Talk).
@Adelas: After widening the tables to 600 it was not a problem any more.
@Screen-size: Remember that scren-size does not equal width of browser window. Personally I almost never browse with maximized window as I have IRC and several other smaller windows beside. And most of my friends and work-mates seem to do the same, in one way or the other but almost never maximized. Still most users are above 800-1000. The left column takes some place -- is it about 150? -- which leaves maybe 700-850 for table widths. Remember that it is possible to use % as in width="25%" for table width and/or column widths. That would always give equal widths no matter how the user aligns the browser window, and then it is up to him to screw up with line breaks and stuff :P
Zimoon (talk) 04:35, 5 January 2012 (EST)

Issue with an old subpage

Hello Adelas,

Zimoon noted an issue with one of your test subpages and for some reason it caused an issue with the categories. Since the page hasn't been updated for a good year now, i deleted it, but you can find it here if you want to bring it back. Item:User:Adelas/Testing-Javascript-inFF7-wNoScript