Talk:Sub-region

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Identifying Sub-region vs Area vs Settlement

NOTICE: This discussion was moved from Talk:Area to here, where it better belongs.


  • Sub-region: In the case of a clickable area name within the region map that opens another map with its own areas. (Ex: Moria)
However, should the area cover much land outside the instance it should be handled as an area; see Fornost and Garth Agarwen for examples (those two are in fact areas which contain smaller instances and not world instances in themselves).

Set guidelines are as above; post concerns or questions here! Rogue (talk) 23:29, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Having chatted on Discord a bit more and deepened my research, I believe this is a fair summary of what we know.
We have defined Lands and Regions and Areas. The later is a zone within a region that contains landmarks, smaller settlements, and alike, but never another area. And there are areas without any other locations but still show as areas. Some settlements identify themselves as area when entering them (using the area type of system message), such as Bree, or the very small Combe and Celondim, but we can safely leave settlements out of the picture here. Just say, an area is a zone of a region that may contain other locations.
In many higher-level regions there are areas that are seemingly contained within larger areas, according to their maps. Or areas that contain other areas, seen from that perspective. It must be noted though, it is only the maps that give us this interpretation! The game as such does not provide this understanding. Any area or settlement we discuss shows that areas are areas, no matter what their map comprises or not.
From the game's DAT files Lotro Companion provides two files that are interesting for this topic, geoAreas.xml and parchmentMaps.xml. They show that areas always connect directly to their region, without any intermediate "area" or "sub-region". However, the files also show that some maps display many areas. Hence it is the map that matches what we call "sub-region" (an intermediate level between region and smaller areas) and not the area. For example, in parchmentMaps.xml the map for Grodbog Hive relates to the map of Redhorn Lodes and the map of Redhorn Lodes to the map of Moria, but in geoAreas.xml Grodbog Hive is an area directly under Moria. So the map for Redhorn Lodes is the "sub-region" but not Redhorn Lodes in itself.


Leaving the knowing/technical/factual part to what Lotro-Wiki is all about: Providing the best possible information about the game, while using the best possible design. This sub-topic can be split in two parts: the Template:Region Navigation Box, and the Template:Infobox Landmarks. The nav-box is for display while the landmark box is mainly for categorization.
For the Template:Infobox Landmarks, what is wanted is usually the feature to tag pages for smaller categories. For example, the area of Old Forest contains uncommonly many locations so I thought it a good idea to have them in Category:Old Forest Landmarks (23 pages). But honestly, that parameter could have a better name too. And displaying the value should likely be removed from this template. I will fix that ASAP. Fixed.
For display we must avoid to confuse our visitors. Using the term "sub-region" out of context is confusing, such as using it for The Wildwood in Bree-land. A layman (any random/common Lotro player) looking at the region-nav-box and see "Sub-region: The Wildwood" and then a looong line "Areas: Andrath • Archet Da..." would rightfully wonder "How is The Wildwood any different than Andrath?" And the correct answer is "Not in any way, they are equal, both are areas and both contain locations". But then we start explaining about intermediate maps and stuff, which is untrue for The Wildwood, that map is not intermediate, it conceptually equals the map for Bree or Old Forest, and there is no other area under it.
Using "sub-region" within context may be helpful, when an area map covers many areas. A question though, is it a good term? Visitors unused to Lotro-Wiki will perhaps interpret it the way it was thought, a smaller zone/region/section of something larger. But others may associate it with region and wonder about its meaning. Are we lucky some of them will follow the link and read our attempt to explain. (And remember we are still talking about an area's map that covers other areas.)
It may be good to display "sub-region" on region- and area-nav-boxes where it is obvious that each of the listed names comprise itself and smaller areas. But if there is just one name and the next line shows one or two areas, then it is questionable if the sub-region line of the nav-boxes should be used or not. Usually not, I think.
However, "sub-region" as a term is not ideal, there is ambiguity to it. The good thing is, it is not "established" and can be changed, would we want to do that. Maybe "sub-zone" would be a better term?
In the end of the day, what information do we want to convey? What extra information is provided by the "sub-region" line of navigation-boxes? And how valuable is it, weighed together with possible confusion? To answer myself: Yes, there is some value to it, where the number of "sub-regions" (zones?) and the number of areas under each of them justify the usage. And it should really be intermediate maps involved, otherwise the concept fills no purpose. — Zimoon 20:40, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
Updated: Zimoon 14:19, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
PS. Another approach altogether could be to show areas grouped under the name of the map that displays them. E.g. "Redhorne Lodes: Area1, Area2, ...<br>Next map-name: ..."   DS. --Zimoon 22:36, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
Copying some chatter from Discord that maybe clarifies/summarizes what I wrote above.
I believe we can split the discussion into some sub-topics but those are kind of contained under: "Should there be an intermediate "something" in between region and lowest areas in the case there are area maps that cover multiple areas?"
  1. "Template:Infobox Areas", should they display anything more than "Region"?
  2. "Template:Infobox Landmarks" etc., should they display anything more than "Area" and "Region"?
  3. Template:<region- and area-navigation-boxes>, should they display anything more than "Region", "Area", and locations?
  4. Should some templates (landmarks, creatures, etc.) support more fine-graded categorization? (Independent of 1 to 3)
For 1-2, there is nothing in-game that supports displaying any extra information: all areas connect directly to region, without any intermediate stuff. — I suggest we display just Region and Area. In the description an editor can give better guidance, such as "... is reached from X (area) via Y (gate/stair/etc.)".
For 3, there are some area maps that cover more areas than their names make up for (map is named for one area bot displays many). Only those maps are put in-between region and areas, nothing else. No area is put in between. Then the questions: Is there any reason to display that map-technical "phenomenon" in some way? Or not? --- I suggest not, because we still need to give better guidance, as shown in previous paragraph. We could, however, group areas shown on same map, one group per line, if we think that gives better information without confusing people.
For 4, in regions with a massive amount of locations or creatures it might be a good idea to support fine-graded categorization. That is hardly visible to users unfamiliar with categorization. But it may help editors to find what should be listed on area pages. This is a from case to case issue, but either we have the support there, or not.
Number 4 is in fact completely independent on any outcome from 1-3, we can support fine-graded categorization anyway. Or not. And if we do, it still does not have to follow any of those special maps. It's just that currently "sub-region" happens to be a parameter at one template and it was previously used on other template(s?).
— Zimoon 13:47, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
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