Talk:Lotro-Wiki Contributors' Corner/Archive 2021
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Welcome to the Archive of the Talk Page of Contributors' Corner for 2021
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Scaled items
While going through treasure caches and recording their contents on the wiki, I've noticed that the scaled items in the caches are extremely formulaic. (I'm referring to Lesser/(nothing)/Greater (prefix) (item) of (suffix)-type items, such as Item:Lesser Steadfast Cloak of Evasion.) So, I've decided to record their stats in a table on the page item, as I've seen done on a number of pages. I have also seen the suggestion to simply put the ranges of values in the item tooltip template. However, this does not seem like an optimal approach since it throws away data. So, unless someone figures out a formula for the attribute values, the data has to be kept somewhere.
Due to the formulaic nature of the items, I've made a template to generate the header for the table based on the name of the item: User:Silver_hr/ScaledItemTableStart. It's incomplete, but I'd say fairly close to being able to handle any possible item. What do you guys think about this approach? If there are no objections, I'd like to put the template in the Template namespace and complete it.
With that said, there's also the question of whether there should be a separate page for every such item at all. I could just as easily make a template to generate the appropriate item tooltip for each of the items, just based on the name. By my rough calculations, there are on the order of 3000 different items of this type that can be generated. But in that case, there should be a place to record all the attribute values if a formula for them can't be found. Silver hr (talk) 03:10, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
- Hi, it is an idea that has been done before, but due to the issues with maintaining all of the static tables, the wiki moved on to just recording them as scaled. The issues are; huge number of scaled items to maintain; Regular and constant changes in stat values by the developers resulting in the stats being out of date once the next upgrade or combat re-balancing occurs, limited number of wiki editors able and willing to review and update all of the stats for EACH level for all EVERY item, resulting in these tables being out of date and essentially useless almost immediately. The developers apply at least small tweaks in virtually every upgrade. Also, while it may seem like a simple formula, in practice this is not the case.
- Your time may be better spent on updating stats for the non-scaling items, or other pages. Noddi (talk) 11:50, 6 March 2021 (UTC) (Wiki Director)
- Module:CalcStatTable can create a table with calculated stats. It does not support sell prices, is something to look into, but the other stats should be all available. I shall see if I can create an example table. --Gisel Avaleazar (talk) 12:07, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
- See the item Item:Lesser Steadfast Cloak of Evasion for the table. I'm not completely sure about the Minimum Level, but it seems like a direct mapping from the Item Level - something to be examined. The table is rather large with all item levels from 85 to 449.. That 449 should be defined in a template: Item Level Cap or something. --Gisel Avaleazar (talk) 12:31, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
- Note that the item has stats from ilvl85 and up, but the dropped item levels is something else. area levels 85-95 translate roughly to ilvl 121-173. --Gisel Avaleazar (talk) 13:12, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
- That looks pretty good, nice work. If you (or someone else) is able to figure out how to calculate the sell price, that would be complete, and there could be a collapsible table on the page of every scalable item (and possibly ranges obtained from Module:CalcStat in the tooltip). Module:CalcStatTable needs a little documentation improvement though; it does not explain the NorC parameter (which looks like what you've used in Item:Lesser Steadfast Cloak of Evasion), and the allowed values for StatName should be included on the page as well.
- Since there's already Template:Level_Cap, I don't see a reason to not have a template for Item Level Cap as well.
- I also went ahead with generating the Item Tooltip, though it's still not quite complete. I've put some examples here. Still not sure whether it's a better approach than having static pages for each item though. Silver hr (talk) 20:45, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
- Ideally, you only want to display the item levels which actually drop, instead of a huge table which is not good for performance. However, this is complex. You would need to figure out which mobs are dropping the items (loot tables), at what mob level and then you need the right mob level to item level drop table (item defined). For instance: if the Steadfast Cloak only drops from lvl86-95 mobs then you only need to show 10 item levels: 130,135,140,145,150,155,160,165,170 and 177 (I've updated the item's table with those values). --Gisel Avaleazar (talk) 22:22, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
- I agree that only the relevant portion of the table should be shown, however, I have no idea how to get the data you describe. I can remember getting scaled item drops from Annuminas at level 40, so I assume they can drop at all equip levels (though I'm not sure whether they can drop at all item levels).
- Performance optimizations should only be done if performance is actually a problem, though; that's something the server operator should know. If running the calculations is determined to be too expensive, the table can be
substed into the page. If, on the other hand, the size of the page with the full table is the problem, there could be an input field for the desired level and a bit of javascript to show the data for that level. Another option might be transclusion if, for example, all Lesser Steadfast items (or types of items) have the same Vitality and Agility, and so on. Silver hr (talk) 04:22, 7 March 2021 (UTC)- I shall see if I can produce that data. I was already thinking about doing some programming in that direction. It will take time. --Gisel Avaleazar (talk) 08:21, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
- I've posted a burgle item table on Discord. You can find the cloak in there with the Id 1879279636. It can be burgled from mob levels 85 to 104. I've updated the cloak's stat table with the extra item levels. Next to examine would be the normal drops. --Gisel Avaleazar (talk) 19:18, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
- I'm not completely sure yet, but for now it looks like Minimum Level of the item is equal to the mob's level. This would create another problem, because then you need to give the item-defined moblevel->itemlevel table and do a reverse-lookup from the itemlevel to get back to the mob's level. --Gisel Avaleazar (talk) 22:19, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
- For the Worth: it looks like it depends on the item's Class and Equipment Category. This needs much more research. --Gisel Avaleazar (talk) 22:28, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
- I've been entering 35 award lvl -> ilvl tables today. I used 138 lines of CalcStat code for 35*130 values, which is not bad. I also got a reverse lookup function working (to go back from award ilvl -> lvl). Only need to create a Lua script version of it for the CalcStat Module now. You will need award table information for each scalable/drop item, so you can choose the right one. I'll need to create that. You can select one from the 35 tables with a 2 letter code: a primary A to H and a optional secondary A to .. --Gisel Avaleazar (talk) 18:53, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
- I've added some sell value data and now the table for the cloak is complete. I've entered about 14% of total item sell data, much more to go.. --Gisel Avaleazar (talk) 14:34, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
- Ideally, you only want to display the item levels which actually drop, instead of a huge table which is not good for performance. However, this is complex. You would need to figure out which mobs are dropping the items (loot tables), at what mob level and then you need the right mob level to item level drop table (item defined). For instance: if the Steadfast Cloak only drops from lvl86-95 mobs then you only need to show 10 item levels: 130,135,140,145,150,155,160,165,170 and 177 (I've updated the item's table with those values). --Gisel Avaleazar (talk) 22:22, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
Container/contained items and section order
Hello, new contributor here! Hope I'll be of help. I wanted to contribute some info on a container item (and its content), but I have a couple of doubts that Boilerplate:Item doesn't seem to cover
- Should the additional information sections follow the order in Boilerplate:Item for consistency? In other words, if I find a page with a different section order, should I correct it?
- After some search, I found that the practice seems to be to open an "Item information" section linking to the respective content or container (for example, Apprentice Jeweller Scroll Case and Agate Bracelet Recipe). Should I add this case to Boilerplate:Item to future helpless new people like yours truly?
--Lucubro (talk) 09:14, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
- Welcome to the Wiki Lucubro!
- The item boilerplate provides an easy way to add new items of all sorts in a standard layout, without having to worry about the coding too much. Common items like recipes, crafting materials or task items should follow this standard, but some items can of course deviate from it. I would look up the page of a similar item and copy-paste parts of that page. Since you're a new user, we will verify your edits anyway. If you still have doubts about how you should add information, feel free to ask here or in our Discord (the link can be found on the main page). (RoyalKnight5 (talk) 11:20, 4 April 2021 (UTC))
freenode
Seems that freenode is no longer trusted and volunteers jumped to libera.chat. I don't believe the channel existed anymore on freenode, so just archiving this here in case i'm wrong.
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