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Previous Talk Page archives can be found at:
file name covers date range
Archive 1 May 2011 to August 2011
Archive 2 August 2011 - November 2011
Archive 3 Liquid Threads (LQT) stuff - no data
Archive 4 September 2012 - December 2012
Archive 5 January 2013 - December 2013
Archive 6 January 2014 - December 2014
Archive 7 January 2015 - December 2015
Archive 8 January 2016 - December 2016
Archive 9 January 2017 - December 2017
Archive 10 January 2018 - December 2018
  • Being the Archive of my Talk page - August 2011 - November 2011

Hey Magill, and welcome to the wiki. I saw you already found your way to the Forums. Good work on those travel skill pages! If you need help, feel free to ask, or drop a line on my talk page. --Ravanel 06:59, 31 May 2011 (EDT)

Promoted to Editor!!! --Lotroadmin (talk) 23:24, 4 July 2011 (EDT)

Back to the moors

Those of you who have been working Ettenmoors pages, please take a look at User:Magill/Sandbox-7. As you read that page, note that there are comments embedded in it on things which need to be done.

I've tried to add as much of the information missing as a result of the two revamps of the Moors since release as I could come up with, mostly from Dev notes. Very little from in-game experience. I've primarily been working the various Ettemoors pages from the Freep point of view as there is still much Freep information missing (especially quests, etc.)

Since my major revision of the base Ettemoors page, I've been ignoring the Moors since the ROI beta started expecting Turbine to make good on their comments about significant revisions... especially regarding either a new area for F2P or allowing them into the Ettenmoors, but nothing yet except:

access the Orc Reaver class for free while the remaining Monster class types will be free for current VIPs but must be purchased individually for non-VIPs.

Depending on this weeks patch (on the 14th, assuming there is one), that will leave only a bit more than 2 weeks till the 27th.... thus far all we have seen is the new Creep, Creep items available for TP in the store... and an assortment of stat tweeks relating to the new increase in level cap. However, since I've never played a Creep, I don't have any particular background to compare with.

That I know of, Troll and Ranger play sections need work neither has been touched significantly in quite a while. Minimally, all stat related stuff will need to be updated. Equipment vendors in both Glân Vraig and Gramsfoot will need to be Rev'd with the new Items/Stats/Costs, etc. I suspect that the ranks/ratings will need to be updated as well.

... and I forget what else at the moment. Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC (talk) 13:00, 11 September 2011 (EDT)

Thanks for the note :)
I am mainly a mapoholic, that is, I am interested in geography and related topics. So far the main things I have done at this wiki is geography related. I guess that won't cross the game-play mechanics that I assume this discussion focuses about. Or?
But, being an engineer by heart I guess whenever I come across something that could be organized somehow, or adjusted, then I easily become meddlesome. Just bash at me then, I most often listen and conform, unless the arguments are bad or missing.
A comment on the instance-stuff then, related to the geographic: Most often it is possible to use the current organization of region->area->landmarks, however, when it comes a larger instance it becomes fuzzy. Think of Goblin-town, it has two main entrances in the area Northern High Pass in Misty Mountains. However, behind these doors are loads of even more landmarks that rather refer to Goblin-town than to NHP or MM, right? Thus I would like to see all instances which have landmarks of their own having a template as if they are their own area, and their landmarks refer to that instance and nothing outside. Today that is possible by abusing the landmark-template and setting region=instance-name and ofc area=instance-name. This makes for categories that gathers this info, and they are eventually connected to the region. --- This has nothing to do with game-play or if the instance is public or not, it is just about geography. --- Or do you have another idea? --Zimoon (talk) 14:10, 11 September 2011 (EDT)

Request on behalf of the Cures of the House of Healing

Hey Magill! I saw you have a level 54 Lore-master. Would you perhaps have time to drop in-game for me and check a few things? I'd like to know the power cost of Leechcraft and Tend the Sick at your level. Make sure you don't have Healer (role) traited when you look at it. And perhaps the resist ratings of those skills as well, while you're at it. Would be awesome if you could help me out! --Ravanel (talk) 10:40, 15 September 2011 (EDT)

No problem... (except that my LM is now 55) I'll give you both current and Bullroarer as both Leechacraft and Tend the sick are merged into one.
Now known as "Improved Knowledge of Cures" Only item listed in Skills as "Cures of the House of Healing" -- note also "Proof against all Ills." (I believe that is new also.)
"Healing and Motivation" have only Inner Flame and Beacon of hope.
"Commune with nature is a new "pet" -- Aurioch is gone, replaced by a "will-o-the-wisp" aka Limfran.
  • The "Warding Knowledge" skills have been consolidated into one skill.
  • The "Warding Knowledge" skills now include additional Genuses.
  • "Leechcraft" and "Tend the Sick" have been consolidate into one skill: "Knowledge of Cures".
  • New skill "Knowledge of Cures".
--Removes 3 Diseases
--Removes 3 Wounds
--Does NOT provide a buff to Resistances.
--CAN be used in combat.
--Cooldown: 10s
--Increased Power Cost
--Level 62 Upgrade to "Improved Knowledge of Cures" eliminates the Induction time.

Lots of other LM (as well as all classes) updates coming in ROI

LV 55 LM
LV 75 LM

Gust of Wind, Cracked Earth, Light of the Rising Dawn, Ents go to War, Lightning Storm, Beacon of Hope, Test of Will all have 140 Morale cost at Lvl 55


Hey Magill. Thanks for writing down the Lore-master skills for me. Proof Against All Ills is only slightly changed, what has mostly changed is the blue line bonuses. And new traits like Improved Inner Flame and indeed (condensed) skills. I had already prepared them a bit (User:Ravanel/Sandbox), planning to put them in the right category and on the Lore-master Skills page when the update is there. Have been waiting with uploading icons since they might always change those last-minute. Some, like the rabbit one, look a bit 'interesting'. :P
Thanks a lot as well for looking up those morale costs! I'll add them to the skill pages. It would be even more awesome if you could keep me updated with the morale costs each time you level up - since it appears to be the same for all those skills that shouldn't be too much work. It's really the only way to find out what the morale costs are... my Lore-master is too high of level and Lorebook only states power costs.
Cheers! --Ravanel (talk) 19:43, 15 September 2011 (EDT)

Beta tag

Heya magill,
As we talked yesterday on IRC, I added a lot of your pages to Category:Stubs/Beta. If you have any other pages in mind, feel free to add them. I hope I didn't add the tag to pages which contain no beta material, as I was very close to add the tag to Orthanc, but it looks like there is not beta material (apart from the picture). --EoD (talk) 08:55, 16 September 2011 (EDT)

What's an "Atom" feed ?

I don't know if I simply never noticed the cute little Orange icon before or if it is new. (on My watchlist page) I am aware it is a feed, but clicking on the link apparently does nothing ... "Atom feed for this page" is not terribly informative :)

I've tried using the instructions found at:, but trying to use:<string I found on my preferences page>

Comes up with a 404 /w/api.php not found...

That string was "filled in" for me on lotro-wiki... but not on en-wiki, I'm assuming that clicking the "atom" link did that?

I don't find anything obvious in Toolbox pages.

Is this actually enabled on this wiki? If so, any guess on what I'm doing wrong? Is this feature browser specific?

Not at all familiar with this web feed thing, but played with it a bit and got (tentatively?) somewhere. The Atom feed basically lets you keep tabs on the latest happenings without actually checking the wiki itself. Could be useful if you monitor several wikis or have an aggregator (see here) or your desktop on something like that, I guess.
According to the Wikipedia page you linked, there's no (or lacking/incomplete?) support for Atom feeds (as opposed to RSS) on Watchlist pages (then why is the Atom button there on your watchlist? No idea). That said, I was able to get a "feed" going for Google Reader for Recent Changes; it just involved copying the "Atom" link from Special:RecentChanges (it's this to save you a click or two.) into the "Add new subscription" box on Google Reader. Added that to my iGoogle home page, and now I can monitor recent changes from my home page without browsing to the wiki. Seems more trouble than it's worth, but interesting to play with. Sethladan 22:42, 19 September 2011 (EDT)
Update: After a couple of tries, got it working with my watchlist, as well. You should be able to do the same using the token you found (and the link you tried above) with one minor change - the /w is for Wikipedia - for Lotro-Wiki, it's just "" It doesn't have to be Google Reader; that's just the first one I thought of. :-P Sethladan 22:54, 19 September 2011 (EDT)

Ok... the "/w" was the problem... got it working a link on a static web page using that URL above. Turns out to be "fairly simple" to get it working in Apple's Mail app and (apparently) in Safari. Mail app was surprisingly easy to get working, and was immediate in its "confirmation." However, while I have the RSS feed working for Turbine's news bulletins in their Launcher, I haven't seen a similar "confirmation" from LOTRO-wiki. We'll see if this post triggers one. Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC (talk) 13:49, 21 September 2011 (EDT)

One thing to bear in mind is the difference in format - RSS and Atom are two different standards (or so I'm given to understand?), so depending on if the url has something along the lines of "feed=atom" or "feed=rss" you may encounter difficulty with some programs. Glad you got it to work to some extent - it's interesting to look into/take advantage of available features even if they don't end up doing much. :) Sethladan 14:05, 21 September 2011 (EDT)

OSX (Mail and Safari) claim to support RSS.9, 1 and 2 plus Atom. The interesting thing at the moment is that Mail works fine as an RSS reader, but Safari does not... even with Apple's own RSS feeds... I suspect there is a problem with Safari. Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC (talk) 23:11, 21 September 2011 (EDT)

Lore-master Skills with Missing Values

The following skill values (marked with an X) vary per player level and are incompletely documented on this wiki. They should be looked up in-game and added to their respective value tables. In the list below, the skills are sorted by level, so you can can see in one glance which skills to check for your character and which not. Remember that some traits and legacies affect the values you're gathering. You can look up which these are under the "Traits" and "Interactions" sections of the skill page. The values that need to be added to the tables are the unaltered base values, so make sure to unspec traits and unequip LI's that affect the skills you are working on.

Skill Morale cost Power cost Power per second Negate/reflect Rating Level acquired
Sign of Power: Command X X 1
Inner Flame X X 4
Test of Will X X 6
Gust of Wind X 8
Cracked Earth X X 14
Light of the Rising Dawn X X 18
Power of Knowledge X 16
Wisdom of the Council X 20
Ents go to War X X 41
Air-lore / Continual Air-lore X 44/64
Lightning Storm X X 50
Sign of Power: See All Ends X 58
Improved Sign of Power: Command X X 66

The following skills share their values:

  • All seven skills that cost morale have the same values for morale cost.
  • Wisdom of the Council damage reflected and (Continual) Air-lore negated.

Note: Sign of Power: Command and Sign of the Wild: Protection (now obsolete) used to share their parry rating.

Skill Power cost Damage Damage over time In-combat power regen Pet level acquired
Roaring Challenge X 1
Shatter Arms X X 19
Bear Hug X X 29
Benediction of the Raven X 15
Distraction X X >15
Fan the Flames X X 17
Beak Rend X X 17
Nobility X 17
Angry Bees X X X 20
Root Strike X X 20
Bursting Root X X 20
Surprise Attack X X 30
Feral Strike X X 34
Slashing Claws X X 39
Frostbite X X 56
Fury of Winter X X 56
Throat Slash X X 56

Note: the following skills share their power cost:

  • Benediction of the Raven, Distraction, Roaring Challenge, Bear Hug, Angry Bees, Root Strike and Bursting Root.
  • Feral Strike, Fan the Flames, Beak Rend, Frostbite, Fury of Winter and Throat Slash.
Hey Magill, would be awesome if you could help me out with the above mentioned while you level up your Lore-master. I'm trying to get the Lore-master skills as complete as possible. Lore-masters rock and their skill pages should reflect that! You'll of course earn my eternal gratitude. :) --Ravanel (talk) 09:15, 20 September 2011 (EDT)
I saw you added some values of your level 55 Lore-master at User:Magill/Sandbox-LM, awesome! I've added the values to the skill pages. Thanks to your values I found some things out and was able to update the table of missing values:
  • Both Dispel Corruption and Call to the Valar have a static power cost of 20 power at all levels. This means we won't have to look this up for these skills in the future! :)
  • Ancient Wisdom (untraited) gives a bonus of +60 at all levels. This will be changed within 5 days with RoI though - don't worry, I will update the skill accordingly when the time is there. This means we won't have to look this skill up anymore.
  • You only have to look up the values with an X; the other values are already correctly filled in at the wiki.
  • Note that information about the damage a skill deals cannot be included on the skill pages, since it is influenced by too many factors to keep track of (level, stats/gear, legendary items/legacies).
  • Do you know how to find the information about Power of Knowledge? Simply start pulling (without the Power and Wisdom trait equipped!) and look in the combat log how much power you pull with each pulse.
Thanks again for the help. I hope you'll do the same once you're level 56! :) --Ravanel (talk) 10:28, 21 September 2011 (EDT)
Hey there! I've found more pages to gather values for, this time the Lore-master pet skills (see above new table). It's a bit more advanced than the actual Lore-master skills, but would be great if you could help out once more. Information on how-to-gather found on User:Ravanel/Sandbox2 at the bottom of the page. --Ravanel (talk) 14:21, 26 September 2011 (EDT)

Archiving Talk pages

Don't know what (if any) "standard" there is for archiving talk pages.

I decided mine was just getting too long, so I simply chopped it at an arbitrary date and created a new page: User:Magill/talk-archive-1.


Well, only about 12-18 hours till ROI goes live! Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC (talk) 01:44, 26 September 2011 (EDT)

*waits* (sigh) --Ravanel (talk) 05:19, 26 September 2011 (EDT)


Just wanted to let you know i moved your search issue to lotroadmin talk page.. skunark is my non-admin test account. --Lotroadmin (talk) 00:52, 27 September 2011 (EDT)

I belive, but not 100% certain, he 'lotroadmin' means my search-issue ;)
... in the case you wondered. Either way, good to see it sorted, and if there is some coding I offer my help, software developer since long. -- Zimoon (talk) 02:34, 27 September 2011 (EDT)

Théodred's Riders Vendor

I started a page Rohirrim Quartermaster for the reputation NPC in Galtrev, and I noticed you were working on the list of items for sale at Théodred's Riders. Perhaps that should go in an inclusion? Also, do you know if there are other quartermasters at different locations so that disambiguation would be necessary? --Elinnea (talk) 22:44, 12 October 2011 (EDT)

An inclusion would definitely be a good idea! That I know of, there is one at the main Riders camp Grimbold's Camp and probably one at Forthbrond ... yup.. just verified it.
I presume that the 3 QMs would get named Rohirrim Quartermaster(Galtrev), Rohirrim Quartermaster(Forthbrond) and Rohirrim Quartermaster(Grimbold) -- this last one could actually be Rohirrim Quartermaster(Garward) since he is the only one with a name -- the others are just titiles.
Guess it makes sense to call the inclusion Template:Rohirrim Quartermaster Items. ... ok made a first pass at creating it and including it in the Théodred's Riders page.
See the Talk page there for current status and other issues.

Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC (talk) 00:54, 13 October 2011 (EDT)

Feel free to delete after you read this

So, It's great leaving the chat logged in when I'm afk. I'm putting this up for you and Seth because I saw you chatted about this stuff. Link it to anybody else that also ought to see it.:

  • Your Create Item page.... I broked it. The one from seth's sandbox works fine for me, but the one on the main page Create_new_item - doesn't work.

That is, I have FF7 with NoScript loaded, and the page comes up fine as though it's going to work, says "Javascript Loaded" and has one text box and one button (Create Page), and then as soon as I type something in there and hit Create Page, it loads the front/home page of the wiki. Hm.
Then, I loaded it up in IE. Now I see TWO buttons, Create Page and Create New Item, each with its own text box. Create Page, as before, sends me to the home page of the wiki. Create New Item goes to the indicated page (eg, and says (with links) "There is currently no text in this page. You can search for this page title in other pages, or search the related logs." Doesn't give the option to edit, probably because I'm not logged in over there, but it also doesn't insert the boilerplate into a named page like it ought to.
I have JS enabled on IE, so I didn't really broked it... but I think someone did.

  • As for the item sample/explanation boilerplate: you guys covered a lot of stuff that I would have mentioned, but I'll go ahead and mention it anyway :-D
  • The examples are often high-level ones that people aren't familiar with (Although I always click through to the examples anyway).
  • It's not clear which box the examples go with
  • OH LAWDY I have GOT to have explanations in the boilerplate - I don't speak "parameter". Some of them are simple enough to figure out, but others... are they yes/no or is there a set of values that belongs there...
  • If there is a short list of acceptable values, it should be written out. I recently found out, to my astonishment, that some of my kin members don't know the names of all 7 crafting tiers. Level 68, playing since closed beta, completed Westfold and Master of the Guild, and didn't know that.... If THEY don't know, the wiki editors might not know. Thus, list.

To that end.... I made this: User:Adelas/Sandbox-itemboilerplate Don't be too harsh, I spent about 2 hours on it, trying to find appropriate type example items under level 15. I found a LOT of items that weren't made using the boilerplate "add-ons", and some that weren't even made with the boilerplate at all (don't ask me to find them again, I forgot to write them down).

I think the most drastic thing was that I thought that some of the add-on text (especially for barter items) was vague, so I expanded it out. I know it's annoying to have to see multiple options. However, I'm a firm believer in making things idiot-resistant. It may be more of a pain to have to scroll through four versions of the barter thing instead of two, but it'll be way better to have someone come to the wiki, copy the right chunk of code, and create an item page that says EXACTLY what it needs to say, instead of giving them a boilerplate add-on that has some extra lines that say "fill this in if it's relevant and leave it off if not" and then risk having extraneous/inaccurate/confusing info. And of course, it's always the goal to have a wiki-reader-only glance at a page and easily understand that this is an item GIVEN to the barter vendor to receive something different (or vice versa).

It's 1 AM yet again and I have accomplished nothing in my house. I need to get up early in teh morning. Sigh. Hope this can be used. -Adelas (talk) 02:15, 16 October 2011 (EDT)

Table and Includes

The Template:Rohirrim Quartermaster Items crafting table has gotten a bit messed up. The table breaks down for items like Item:Apple and Cheese Pie Recipe, which put the <onlyinclude> on the line above the start of the recipe, but it's ok for items like Item:Chicken Pie Recipe, which have it down on the same line as the start of the recipe. Do you know why it does this? -- Elinnea (talk) 19:52, 18 October 2011 (EDT)

Cleaning up unused images

Is File:Protection-tags-1.jpg image going to be used somewhere, or can I safely delete it? --Ravanel (talk) 08:09, 19 October 2011 (EDT)

Forgot all about them.... they were the new "debuffs" appearing on Orcs in Isengard.... don't know if they have been "created" as ?Effect? pages or not. Other than that... I don't have any plans for it so it can easily be deleted. Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC (talk) 15:43, 19 October 2011 (EDT)

I have created the effect pages for you (Protection's Effect, Deadly Damage's Effect & Aura of Protection). Perhaps it's handier if you create them yourself next time: I am not certain of the relationship between the effects (e.g. does Aura of Protection cause the other two on enemy targets within the aura? It sounds like it, but I cannot see this on the screenshots and thus cannot enter it on the wiki. You are dead at the moment of the screenshot, and we cannot see if to who the other debuffs are applied and by whom), nor can I see the proper spelling of "Deadly Damage's Effect". Let me know if all is done well and we can delete the unused image. --Ravanel (talk) 10:31, 1 November 2011 (EDT)

So far I have not yet gotten a toon to 75 so I can't follow up on getting more info. Basically, those 3 "debuffs" were present on the Shak-hai-warrior. As I recall, they "toggled" on and off over time. I do not recall if all 3 were present at one time, or if the Protection's Effect toggled with the Deadly Damage Effect or what combination. As I recall, those mobs had red and/or green "halos" around them as they wandered the battlefield. And they only applied to certain MOBs. (the Shaki in particular) and not to others. I did find one other screen shot... File:Protection-tags-2.jpg In that, the Warrior has the Deadly Damage and Aura of Protection up simultaneously, and other than KOLM was not being attacked. I'll keep an eye out for any time those effects appear other than in Isengard.

I just noticed that the Lorebook has an entry for the spell. -- but it has no useful information as to its source. Interestingly, the wording for "Aura of Command" is identical... and if you look at the Uruk_Warleader you find that is buff he can generate. According to Google, we are the only ones with any kind of reference to those effects. Hmmm... there is ascreen shot in this post with the Red and Greene halos on the Shak-hai Archers ... post #356 -- implication is that the AURA effects nearby mobs. All that said, go ahead and delete those 2 jpegs. (I created Shak-hai Warrior Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC (talk) 15:31, 1 November 2011 (EDT)

Cool! Thanks for the reply. It's good to see everything is up to date with the info we got. I've deleted the screenies now. --Ravanel (talk) 07:09, 3 November 2011 (EDT)

Hey, found another one. Did you have a use for File:The Gap of Rohan-map-1.jpg? It's currently unused. --Ravanel (talk) 06:28, 4 November 2011 (EDT)
That was the beta map of the area... it's actually the Google Map! (like you fid on the Lorebook). I can't think of a reason to keep it around. Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC (talk) 19:36, 4 November 2011 (EDT)

OK, was just asking... you might have wanted to keep it out of sentimental/nostalgic reasons. --Ravanel (talk) 22:52, 4 November 2011 (EDT)

Just a Quick Cheers

Have not seen you in some days and now you are back with a comment somewhere. Welcome back. Zimoon (talk) 02:07, 18 November 2011 (EST)

Anybody have any guess as to "where" this is?

This tower is visible above (across the Isen) from Wulf's Cleft from Wulf's Cleft Overlook. I have no idea where/what it might be. Anybody have any guess?

The Gap of Rohan

Wulf's Cleft is way up river from where the Hornberg would be. Gap of Rohan

Tower visible across from Wulf's Cleft -- from near Cuvnerth - Isendale
Tower visible above (across the Isen) from Wulf's Cleft from Wulf's Cleft Overlook

Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC (talk) 13:25, 19 November 2011 (EST)