Help talk:Categorization

The Reason?

The idea here is pretty basic.

If a Hierarchical category list is used, then templates can be built in such a way that they provide the categorization for the users. An editor simply fills in a template to create a new entry and all the categorization is determined from within that template (or templates) to properly maintain the structure.

Thus you alleviate concerns about proper placement of entries within an organized structure in the most simple fashion.

If there is no well organized structure and/or it is up to the submitter of the information to figure out how to categorize things, then you'll have miscategorized and 'orphan' pages showing up with fair regularity. -- 20:53, 2 January 2008 User:Eleazaros

Merge

This is a merge candidate together with Categorization Guideline. I suggest we use this one as the oldest and kind of a more official name. However, a merge is a merge and I am unbiased when it comes to which of the two that might achieve more weight in the end ;)

Unless anybody objects I can take on the merge over the coming week, doing a merge and polishing. A short explanation is apt as well, right? -- Zimoon 04:32, 25 October 2011 (EDT)

Categories, Why and How?

Not exactly during the merge but not far ahead we need to take on a serious discussion about categories. I suggest we use the forum for that, no such topic posted yet what I know of. -- Zimoon 04:32, 25 October 2011 (EDT)

Pages merged

The two suggested pages are merged, and some basic topics of an outline for the topic begun.
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC (talk) 17:01, 11 August 2012 (EDT)

Content on category pages

There has been discussion about whether or not content belongs on category pages. C&P from Discord pending. --Ruby (talk) 10:23, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Started as part of discussion at Category_talk:Titles#Titles_page

From Discord:

"i had an idea today about the content on category pages, what if those categories that have some content there had it in an collapsible element that would be collapsed by default. That way upon entering the page we would see all the subcategories and pages in the category, and the page could still have the icon tables etc accessible just by one click" --Drono

"That's an interesting idea, yeah. I wonder if we should still move content off a few category pages for consistency but for ones where the information is valuable, a collapsible element could be perfect. What do Thurallor and Rogue4ever think about that idea?" --Ruby

"I like the idea of collapsible tables for the icon category pages, those are the exception of me even remotely being ok with having data on category pages. So yah I think thats a great idea." --Rogue4ever

"Fine with me, I'm really not passionate about the topic." --Thurallor

Second Try

There has been some chatting on Discord about whether to have contents on category pages or on individual pages. And there was talk about a year ago on Category talk:Titles#Titles_page. Let's give it a second try, hoping for consensus in some form.

Let's just begin with pros and cons. (Please add here if I missed some pros or cons.)
Pros

Using a category page for creating a list or table meant for transclusion to elsewhere helps including correct items. Especially when updating such a list or table after an in-game change. The number of items must match what is contained in the category.

Cons

If settings is not set correctly, regular users will find it harder to search because they must remember to add the category before the name.

Editors must scroll down to find the contained items below the contents.

I fully agree that "contents" does not mean stuff that should be on individual pages. In this context "contents" only relates to items contained by a category. And maybe a summary from contained sub-categories if it is not too overwhelming. Definitely not a wall of text!

There is a background tale to why I personally work a lot with contents on category pages:

When I came to Lotro-Wiki the location templates were brand new, and many landmarks, etc., where not converted. So I took upon myself to empty the old location category by converting pages to the new templates. Starting from Archet I recall.

I found some inconsistencies with both templates and thinking, which I fixed. As a programmer I found it weird to update each location page with lists or stuff I could easily get from e.g quest or NPC category pages. So I started to make the lists or tables on the categories and transclude that stuff onto the location pages. Mainly quests and NPCs.

We all agreed it looked nice and it was easy to see if any quest or NPC were missing or not. One thing lead to another so I begun to transclude from settlements onto area pages, and from areas onto region pages. And from regions onto lands.

In my opinion the biggest plus to have contents on category pages is that you instantly can see when your work does not match what is contained in the category. And certainly so when maintaining stuff after the inevitable in-game changes. For example, today I added an accuracy template to the Trollshaws Titles which lists just 6 titles while the category clearly tells it should be 17; an example of when an individual page drifts away from reality.

Individual pages tend to become outdated fairly quick, historically proven. First of all not all editors know those pages exist so when something must be updated they are left behind. There is also the risk that some other guy creates a parallel page, ignorant of the first, which for a time may be more accurate but soon both pages compete about attention and will stray even further away from reality. That said, I am not against individual pages for contents that become unwieldy or more than partially irrelevant to the category page, and parts of them can be transcluded to wherever needed.

My comments on pros & cons: We can easily create redirects when a term should be searchable. As I did for some Trollhaws terms today (e.g. Trollshaws Deeds, Deeds Trollshaws, etc.). It is not hard for an editor to press PgDown one or a few times, rather that than having to open a few more browser-tabs to get an overview of current work.

Sure, I am biased. But I think you understand that I am not aiming for a "wild-west" scenario but instead aiming for a pragmatic attitude. Providing readers with great info and providing editors with better "tools" is my goal. (But for editors, clearly it is a balance between this and that, such as scrolling versus having contents just under one's nose, sure.) — Zimoon 20:11, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

I'd like to add to the con of 'harder to find category pages using the search bar'. For items and quests, you actually don't need to type in the prefix, for example you can start typing 'Sword of Aercherth' and it starts autocompleting. This is not the case for categories.

And to me, the con of 'having to scroll down' is only minor, since you can just open the same page in another tab.--RoyalKnight5 (talk) 07:41, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Agree with RoyalKnight5 here, was going to suggest that opening the page and category in 2 windows next to each other might be actually even better than having it all on one page.

Furthermore i disagree with the provided example of the Trollshaws Titles it lists 6 titles while the category has 6 slayer titles, other than that instance titles and reputation titles - which are not included on any other regional titles page as far as i know. --Drono (talk) 08:50, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for feedback, Royal, that is what I often do, I open a second tab of the same category page when needed. Usually having them side by side (½ monitor each), to be able to compare contained items with the list or table I am updating (opening in new window is Ctrl+N while in new tab is Ctrl-T).

However, for me the search-bar does not work with your example, typing 'Sword of Aer' does not auto-complete to anything. Hitting Enter after completing to the full name takes me to the Search page where the wanted page is found topmost though. I am using Chrome but that should not matter because everything else auto-completes nicely, but not items, quests, and more within categories. I checked my settings but could not find any options for 'search'. What am I doing wrong?

Thanks Drono, I see. I had expected all titles of a region to be listed but of course one can see it "your" way, too. Hence, I removed accuracy from that page and instead added a line with a link to the category page 'for a few more titles'. So, that was a bad example. But trust me, I have stumbled upon many such outdated pages. Not only years ago but since I re-joined our lovely "family", too. — Zimoon 10:06, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

'Sword of Aer' autocompletes for me in all browsers, did not have chrome, but installed it and it works there for me too. I am not saying the regional titles pages are supposed to look like that, i did not investigate it further, i am guessing that the summary page kinda follows the deed categorization, eg. titles from deeds on the regional deed tab, but thats a discussion for other place. --Drono (talk) 10:33, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Problem with search auto-completion solved, it seems there was some options in my very old https://lotro-wiki.com/api.php?action=query&meta=userinfo&uiprop=* that were not set. "Restore all default settings (in all sections)" resolved that issue. — Zimoon 11:02, 30 November 2021 (UTC)