Help talk:Recipe Index
Accuracy Question, Thanks
In the note:
- "Note that Ally Reputation Vendors and Suppliers in the same neighborhood"
I don't believe there are any Reputation Vendors in the Housing neighborhoods -- also I don't know what the term "Ally" means in this context.
It should probably simply read:
- "Note that Vendors and Suppliers in the same neighborhood"
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC (talk) 14:36, 30 July 2012 (EDT)
- Thanks, you are correct. I will not check our history to figure out if that was me or somebody else, but it should be corrected. Thanks again. -- Zimoon 05:22, 31 July 2012 (EDT)
- The phrasing was a little vague perhaps, but I think Goingbald's original meaning was that vendors with whose reputation you are allied as well as suppliers who are in a neighborhood in which you own a house offer discounted supplies. There are two classes of vendors here: reputation and neighborhood suppliers. I'll leave it to you two to decide how best to explain this, heh. Sethladan 20:10, 5 August 2012 (EDT)
- Ahaa, that made sense. Edited, check the grammar please but try to keep it short and not a novel hehehe. -- Zimoon 08:12, 6 August 2012 (EDT)
A word on Guild Vs Reputation Recipes
In working the Westfield Tailor (T7) recipes, I have discovered that there are a series of Recipes which have several qualities.
- The Guild offers the same recipes which are available from Reputation Vendors in Stangard.
- There are duplicate RECIPE names for certain items (Great River Leggings and Great River Pauldrons) between Light and Medium Armour. These have been designated as [[Item:Great River Leggings Recipe (light)|Recipe]] and [[Item:Great River Pauldrons Recipe (light)|Recipe]] in the listings.
- The Guild recipes have as names, the names of the Critical Success outputs; while the Riders of Stangard recipes have "basic" names.
The issue/difference with the first "quality" is that the Guild Recipes became "visible" first because the level and Reputation necessary to obtain the Riders of Stangard Recipes were not available to those entering the data. While this was not obvious at first, it led to certain confusion when the Riders of Stangard Recipes were added. Eventually, it was realized that the Guild recipes are in fact for the Critical versions of the Armour only, and DO have different component as well as reputation and cool-down requirements, from those from the Riders.
One presumes that this issue also exists with other Recipe Sets -- Théodred's Riders Recipes in particular, but I have not looked at them as I have rep with the Riders of Stangard, but not with Théodred's Riders as yet. Sigh.
And, one presumes that this situation is also true of other professions, not just with Tailor! It is definately true with T7 recipes. However, I do not know if it is true with other Tiers as well. One presumes also, from information from Turbine so far, that the T8 Crafting will have a similar structure with respect to other Reputation Vendors "East of Stangard".
Further additions to the help page will need wait until September :)
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC (talk) 14:36, 30 July 2012 (EDT)
- I do not see a question here so I assume you are documenting possible issues or maybe verifying the map while walking the world ;)
- My personal thought though. If there is any differences regarding the recipes, perhaps adding "(Guild)" and "(Stangard)" would help, right? Also for the items, but there maybe "(Light 75)" versus "(Medium 75)" would do better? And capitalized of course ;)
- At least such an approach adds further information to the casual visitor, the page name itself very visible even if we use the correct item name in all other text and the info-box. In other words, I suggest we think for the future and make names a tad more specific to avoid name clashes or confusion (if any confusion is anticipated).
- Zimoon 05:22, 31 July 2012 (EDT)
There are several problems I was addressing here.
First, as you put it, "verifying the map while walking the world" -- is obviously what actually occurred. (By the way, I like that phrase, never heard it before.)
There are a tremendous number of incomplete and therefore incorrect(misleading) entries in Tailor Westfold Recipe Index (and I assume in the other indexes as well, but I was only looking at the T7 Tailor). This particular "index" was supposed to be a recipe index, yet a HUGE number (probably well over 50%) of the entries had no Recipes!
This leads to a great deal of confusion, such as for [[Item:Crafted Rune-keeper's Rune-satchel of the Third Age (Level 75)]] which is listed under: Tailor_Westfold_Recipe_Index#Legendary_Rune-keeper_Rune-bags_.28Level_75.29. The Item describes itself as something obtained from a Skirmish Vendor -- there is no crafting information associated with it other than an apparently "random" (i.e. empty) heading." Does that mean it really is something which can be crafted by Tailors? -- "verifying the map while walking the world" -- yes, most definitely! That Item entry was evidently created upon discovery of the Skirmish Vendor by someone without knowledge of, or access to a T7 Tailor.
My original problem was with the Riders of Stangard items -- I had no idea that they were also Guild Recipes -- evidently Turbine had slipped them in to the Guild sometime after I had achieved T7 Mastery and Master of the Guild status. So when I added the Stangard items to the list, I moved the Guild listing and completed it, assuming that whoever had created the listing had only done the critical parts of the recipes (since the Recipes themselves had not been done) and not gotten back to complete their work. Then ?Elana? pointed out to me, that in fact there were Guild recipes to generate the Critical Items Only and that they had similar but different recipes! Which gave rise to my lengthy expansion of the information for the recipe pages for those items. Which eventually lead to the creation of the page for transclusion. {{Category:Light Armour (The Riders of Stangard)}}
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC (talk) 13:36, 31 July 2012 (EDT)
Armour Set Comparisons
Of related note to this topic is an effort to generate "Item Set" pages for these (and ultimately all) Crafted Armour Sets, which while not containing a bonus for wearing multiple pieces and therefore not being classed as "classic" Armour Sets on this WIKI, Turbine considers them "Sets" none the less.
The primary reason for this is that Crafted Armour is the highest (best) Armour available to, probably 90% of the player base of LOTRO -- i.e. those who do not "Raid" routinely. While this is especially true at lower levels, there are many players who do not engage in "end-game" play on a routine basis. And, as those of us who have been around since the Level Cap was 50 have seen. It is a moving target!
See Talk:Armour Sets Index, especially Talk:Armour Sets Index#Unofficial Sets.
An example of the ultimate goal is: Category:Light Armour (The Riders of Stangard) -- The upper portion of that page is intended for transclusion into the pages for the Guild and Reputation Recipe pages of the respective sets. The lower portion is likely to become a separate page like The Great River (Anduin) Jewellery Set Comparisons. In any event, the pages associated with this Category will be the pages of the Items, Recipes and the like.
Pages related to Armour set stuff that I have been working on.
- Armour Sets Indexes
- Comparison of Hunter Armour Sets (Medium Armour)
- Category:Light Armour (The Riders of Stangard)
- Category:Medium Armour (The Riders of Stangard)
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC (talk) 14:58, 30 July 2012 (EDT)
- I am not sure all of this information is best put at this "Help talk:Recipe Index" page, but nevermind, I cannot quickly think of another place right now. If you find any, please move this text to there, right? -- Zimoon 05:22, 31 July 2012 (EDT)
Cook Recipe Index: Terms and Font Questions
Verifying Cooking recipes on my character in-game, I noticed that for many of the Cook Recipe Indexes, the items in the component column look like this:
Please take special note of the bold font used for the "current" crafting tier's name. So you get Expert Recipe Index has Cook Expert, Master Recipe Index has Cook Master, etc. Any component from a different crafting tier has normal text. This behavior affects all indexes, Expert through Westfold, but not Eastemnet or Westemnet (I'm assuming recipes there use lower tier components which are unmarked for some reason, but have not yet confirmed this). The highlighted terms also follow a specific order: <Vocation> <TierName> (Cook Apprentice); except for Westfold which appears backwards (Westfold Cook).
All of this above raises some questions:
- Is the highlighting of any text in these tables intentional behavior?
- Should components from the current recipe index be highlighted with bold text?
- Should components from a different recipe index level be highlighted instead?
- What is the proper order of terms, <Vocation> <TierName>, or vice versa?
- Should Eastemnet and Westemnet also have such highlighting, if appropriate?
-- Squirmier (talk) 06:16, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
- Generally speaking, Yes, they are intentional.
- Usually their consistent use is related to the number of individuals who have worked on the page after the originator.
- Some usages are actually documented. But more are simply "lore" passed down from hand to keyboard over time.
- Feel free to document how you think things should be!
- One issue to remember, which is less a problem today than it was in the past -- different browsers display things like fonts and colors differently.
- A related issue -- MediaWiki displays the name of the page you are on in BOLD when referenced via wikified text on that same page.
- For example, this page is Help talk:Recipe Index - note that it Displays in Bold, but does not respond when you mouse-over it as you would expect a link to do.
- One thing which is probably true now for the Cooks pages -- at one time 90+% of the ingredients for the Cook could-be or had-to-be purchased. This was unique to the Cook recipes, and has been largely "fixed" in-game, but not completely.
- I think Magill's second bullet hits the issue here, that those links are just showing up as bold because they link back to the same page. I took a quick skim of the wiki code and didn't notice any explicitly bolded (with the single-quote markup) text. Magill is also right that Cook has always been treated a little differently, but that's a legacy from way before even my time, four years ago and change. If it's a system that doesn't make sense anymore or needs to be changed, then don't let inertia stop you from making/suggesting improvements! Sethladan 18:41, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
Missing ingredients
At the moment, there is no mention of Universal Optional Crafting Ingredient and Universal Ingredient Pack at all. Any ideas on how to add them? Belov7 (talk) 11:50, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
- Looking at some of what you've done. I don't like the spacing this creates and am wrapping my brain around how to answer your question. Sorry it's a late reply but I'm not active in the wiki much anymore. I like the * note style stating that you can use such-n-such at the bottom of the tables and part of me wonders if that's "good enough" and we can leave off the item from the table =-
- First option: in other words remove the item like brimstone from the tables to help keep those looking "cleaner" and just have the information at the bottom of the tables where they are for now..
- The second option: OR maybe it would be better to remove the "right align" and add the other ingredient next to the brimstone (or whichever ingredient is needed) which may be the way I might have gone but I don't want to just start editing to see what it looks like....
- Those are my thoughts for this early morning. Rogue (talk) 13:37, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
- The way I do this is the most balanced option.
- Alignment to the right edge of the cell, for Optional Mastery Component, is necessary to further emphasize that this component is optional and you can make a recipe without it (when all the components are in one row, a beginner might think that they are all necessary).
- Optional Mastery Component is not used in every recipe, and if you remove it from the table in the text after the table, it will not be clear enough (you will need to scroll through the table to the end to find out if it is possible to use the Optional Mastery Component). In addition, there are tables that use the Optional Mastery Component of several types.
- Yes, it is possible to add the Universal Optional Crafting Ingredient next to the Optional Mastery Component to the table. But Universal Optional Crafting Ingredient is quite rare and can always be used to replace Optional Mastery Component. This will be redundant information in so many places.
- By the way, I did not understand how to add the required amount of Universal Ingredient Pack for Legendary items. Different qualities require different quantities, and First Age quality cannot be produced with the Universal Ingredient Pack. Perhaps one more column is needed on the right. As I understand it, for this it is necessary to seriously redo the Template: Legendary Index. Belov7 (talk) 14:34, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
- I'll give my opinion on the subject as well. First of all, the Item:Universal Optional Crafting Ingredients and Item:Universal Ingredient Packs were still missing on most pages, thanks for adding them. I like the idea of adding them at the bottom and referring to them with an asterisk better than including them in the table as well.
- However, I don't like the right alignment of the optional mastery component. I understand that it makes them stand out a bit more from the other ingredients, but I don't think that is really needed. They are italicized and in the title of this column it is mentioned that italicized text refers to optional mastery components. The link with the critical success in the leftmost column might also get a bit more lost when using right alignment.
- For the amount of universal ingredient packs needed for LIs, I do not know the answer. I could go over all LI recipes in the crafting panel in-game and post my findings here though. --RoyalKnight5 (talk) 07:28, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
- I think we could add columns with the numbers of Universal Ingredient Pack, and maybe even column indicating Universal Optional Crafting Ingredient. Although i am not sure that one is needed, as it can always used instead of the crit item, it seems to me like general crafting knowledge that does not need to be on all the tables. I also don't like the right alignment and agree with RoyalKnight5 there.--Drono (talk) 09:02, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
- For reference, below is an overview of the amount of UIPs needed for LI recipes. NA indicates that it is not possible to use them for this recipe. --RoyalKnight5 (talk) 06:58, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
LI lvl TA SA FA 60 8 UIPs 12 UIPs / 65 10 UIPs 15 UIPs NA 75 10 UIPs 15 UIPs NA 85 10 UIPs 15 UIPs NA 95 10 UIPs 15 UIPs NA 100 NA NA NA
- Belov7, I noticed that you changed the right alignment to an empty line (while still keeping the italic font) and I agree with this approach. This way the optional ingredients stand a bit more out from other ingredients, but still display nicely on other devices.--RoyalKnight5 (talk) 16:48, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
- With NA I meant Not available. In these recipes, the components cannot be replaced by Ingredient Packs.
- Since Template:Legendary Index is used quite extensively on the wiki, I will raise the addition UIP's in the template to other editors and see what they think about it.--RoyalKnight5 (talk) 06:59, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
- First of all, the additional column for the UIPs in Template:Legendary Index looks really nice. Congrats on editing the template too.
- With the addition of this column, I am convinced that we should do the same for other recipes (for consistency). I suggest you make the same columns as in the template on the recipe indexes, instead of writing the amount of UIPs needed below the table. Don't feel pressed to do this, as I can see you have been making a lot of edits. I would like to point out that if you make several edits on one page, try to minimize the amount of submits. So instead of editing each individual section, edit the whole page. Of course, if you want to change something after submitting, you can submit a new edit. Thanks for your work! --RoyalKnight5 (talk) 16:37, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
- Do you have someone who is good with templates? UIPs cannot be used for level 100 Legendary items. It is necessary to somehow remove the column with UIPs for level 100 Legendary items from the Template:Legendary Index. I do not know how to do that.
- I only have one character who has the professions of Metalsmith and Tailor. Therefore, I can only specify the number of UIPs for these professions. The rest of the professions will have to be taken up by someone else.
- I'm not sure if a separate column is needed for UIPs in other recipes. This column will contain the same numbers. Why do you need a column with the same numbers? It only makes sense when the numbers are different. Belov7 (talk) 20:55, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
- I can add the UIPs for Weaponsmith and some lower tiers of other professions. But we will find other people who can help.
- As for the separate column in all recipes, we generally wish to be consistent on the wiki. Readers can more easily find the information they need this way. Specifically on recipe indexes, the tables can be quite long and so a lot of scrolling is needed to find the amount of UIPs. After all, one column with the same numbers is not too bad (compare to the Craft XP column).--RoyalKnight5 (talk) 06:49, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
- Speaking of the Craft XP column. I noticed that on the Metalsmith Minas Ithil Recipe Index, none of the numbers in the column match the number written in the game. Is this so, or was I mistaken somewhere and looked in the wrong place? Belov7 (talk) 21:50, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
- Yes indeed. I didn't notice the buff. Thanks for the clarification. Belov7 (talk) 13:18, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
- Options to consider
Heavy Armour (Level 7)
See the Heavy Armour (Level 1-20) Index for effects.
| Craft Item Critical Success |
Recipe | Components Optional Mastery Component |
|---|---|---|
 UIPs - 1
| ||
| Craft XP - 6 | ||
 Bronze Armour  Thick Bronze Armour  Dwarf-make Bronze Armour  Thick Dwarf-make Bronze Armour  Elven Bronze Armour  Thick Elven Bronze Armour
|
Basic Recipe |
2 Bronze Ingots  Chunk of Crude Brimstone
|
 Bronze Boots  Thick Bronze Boots  Dwarf-make Bronze Boots  Thick Dwarf-make Bronze Boots  Elven Bronze Boots  Thick Elven Bronze Boots
|
Basic Recipe |
same as above |
 Bronze Gloves  Thick Bronze Gloves  Dwarf-make Bronze Gloves  Thick Dwarf-make Bronze Gloves  Elven Bronze Gloves  Thick Elven Bronze Gloves
|
Basic Recipe |
same as above |
Heavy Armour (Level 7)
See the Heavy Armour (Level 1-20) Index for effects.
| Craft Item Critical Success |
Recipe | Components Optional Mastery Component |
|---|---|---|
| UIPs - 1 | ||
| Craft XP - 6 | ||
| Bronze Armour Thick Bronze Armour Dwarf-make Bronze Armour Thick Dwarf-make Bronze Armour Elven Bronze Armour Thick Elven Bronze Armour
|
Basic Recipe |
2 Bronze Ingots Chunk of Crude Brimstone
|
| Bronze Boots Thick Bronze Boots Dwarf-make Bronze Boots Thick Dwarf-make Bronze Boots Elven Bronze Boots Thick Elven Bronze Boots
|
Basic Recipe |
same as above |
| Bronze Gloves Thick Bronze Gloves Dwarf-make Bronze Gloves Thick Dwarf-make Bronze Gloves Elven Bronze Gloves Thick Elven Bronze Gloves
|
Basic Recipe |
same as above |
Heavy Armour (Level 7)
See the Heavy Armour (Level 1-20) Index for effects.
| UIPs - 1 | ||
|---|---|---|
| Craft XP - 6 | ||
| Craft Item Critical Success |
Recipe | Components Optional Mastery Component |
| Bronze Armour Thick Bronze Armour Dwarf-make Bronze Armour Thick Dwarf-make Bronze Armour Elven Bronze Armour Thick Elven Bronze Armour
|
Basic Recipe |
2 Bronze Ingots Chunk of Crude Brimstone
|
| Bronze Boots Thick Bronze Boots Dwarf-make Bronze Boots Thick Dwarf-make Bronze Boots Elven Bronze Boots Thick Elven Bronze Boots
|
Basic Recipe |
same as above |
| Bronze Gloves Thick Bronze Gloves Dwarf-make Bronze Gloves Thick Dwarf-make Bronze Gloves Elven Bronze Gloves Thick Elven Bronze Gloves
|
Basic Recipe |
same as above |