Category talk:Quest Chains
The following instructions apply to all quest-chains
How to Create Quest-chains?
- When a quest has a named quest-chain read at the in-game quest log, add that name to the questchain parameter of the quest template.
See Help:Quests#Quest Chains and Explanation of Parameters for more information.
- At the preview, or after saving, you will notice a category link for the quest-chain, follow it and create or update the page. All contained quests should have a link to this category. Such a category must link to [[Category:Region-name Quest Chains]] but nothing else.
- A simple example: Category:A Faint Gleam Quests
- A complex example: Category:Crannog's Challenge Quests
- For unnamed de-facto quest-chains, add a Questbox and maybe a category link to the chained quests; see below for examples.
- Example where only the first quest has a named quest-chain in the quest log but the following quests do not, though they are part of a de-facto chain: Quest:Word of Warning. Here only the first quest is using the questchain parameter while the others are using the transcluding technique described in section Multiple Quests.
- For a true quest-chain but with a quest-group name that is different than a regional group name, you may set both the questgroup and questchain parameters to the same name. Meaning, the quest log does not read a quest-chain while the quest-group name is odd, do this to save yourself some work. In the end of the day, only the quest-group will be visible at the quest's info box. Though, a quest-chain box and a category link are automagically added to the quest. For this special case, see how named quest-chains are handled above. Example: Quest:Into the Rift which is part of Category:The Rift of Nûrz Ghâshu Quests.
Quest Prerequisites
Information about prerequisites and quest-chains is much appreciated by all. The same is true for quests or quest-chains that are prerequisites for subsequent quests or quest-chains.
However, in the quest-chain box, do not include quests that are not truly required; use the walk-through/info box if needed.
- Prerequisites are added above the chain, using italics to make them different from the real chain.
- Prerequisites for subsequent quests or chains are added below the chain in italics.
- Examples: A Faint Gleam and Category:Crannog's Challenge Quests.
- If the information becomes too messy for transclusion, link to a page with the not-transcluded information.
Examples:
* ''Prerequisites: completed "[[Quest:Quest Name|Quest Name]]"'' * ''Prerequisites: completed the quest-chain "[[:Category:Questchain-name Quests|Questchain-name]]"'' THE CHAIN GOES HERE * ''Prerequisite for ...'' or maybe * ''The quest "Some Quest Name" is prerequisite for ...'' * ''The quest "Another Quest Name" is prerequisite for ...''
See Boilerplate:Quest for more examples and a pre-formatted quest-chain box.
We want to provide facts to our visitors, while we do not want to confuse anybody with too much clutter.
Unnamed Quest Chains
Lotro has several unnamed quest-chains for quests that truly depend on each other. However, if no quest-chain is read in the in-game Quest Log you must not use the "questchain" parameter but we use other techniques. We do not want fake names in the quests' info-boxes.
- Remember that "natural dotted-line quests", trajectory quests, are not real quest-chains (usually). And those must not use neither the "questchain" parameter nor the Quest Chain box; use the walk-through/info box if needed, or nothing.
Single Quests
A single quest may be a true prerequisite for, or depend on, another quest or chain. Use a Quest Chain box and text as shown above. But do not add any category link. For example:
{{Questbox| Quest Chain | collapsed |
* ''Prerequisites: completed "[[Quest:Quest Name|Quest Name]]"''
}}
Multiple Quests
Several quests may form an unnamed de-facto chain. There are two techniques for that case: simply copy and paste a quest-chain-box to each of the chained quests but nothing else (useful for a very short, unnamed chain), or, create a page or a category for the chain and paste a transcluding quest-chain-box to the chained quests. (If using a category you should link the quest to it as well.) Examples:
{{Questbox| Quest Chain | collapsed |
* [[Quest:First Quest]]
* [[Quest:Second Quest]]
* [[Quest:Third Quest]] - ''Fellowship''
}}
{{Questbox| Quest Chain | collapsed |
{{:Z Quests}} <-- a simple page
}}
OR
{{Questbox| Quest Chain | collapsed |
{{:Category:Z Quests}} <-- transclude from...
}}
...where Z is the name of the first or the final quest of the unnamed chain.
A category page lists the chained quests, as in the simple example, and has <onlyinclude> around the list only, as tight as possible. Example: Category:Reassembling the Statue Quests (in edit mode).
Splitted Quest Chains
How to deal with the case when one quest chain continues into others, either all named, or some of them, or all are unnamed?
- Named quest-chains must always stand by themselves under their correct names. This implies one category per named quest-chain. The true chain-name will be visible at the quest info box and you also add it as a header above the list of chained quests; the header should be transcluded as well.
- Unnamed, true quest-chains may be constructed per the editor's discretion and begin and end where there are no further dependencies. However, they should be kept quite short, usually not spanning over many locations, instead...
- Interlink smaller chains as described for prerequisites. Compare how Epic Books are interlinked with each other.
I know, I know
I created these instructions without asking or discussing with anybody. Thence, feel free to add, complement, or change so it matches our mutual consensus. However, please first read through and ponder a day or two. I believe I did not took down too far away from what we all want with this wiki, right?
- (Note: At the time, all administers decided to stay with the suggestion. Zimoon 14:31, 12 November 2021 (UTC))
Background, several times I when pottering with Locations I have come across quests with quest-chains that included every possible relative of the Bagginses family tree, with all the hooks to Brandybucks and Tooks possible. Nah, I exaggerate, but some examples I have seen have included many more quests that were NOT part of the chain than those that were.
Yes, we understand the importance of completeness, no doubt about that. The question is WHERE to have it. Should it really reside within each quest's quest-chain box? Also so when a quest does not at all relate to many other quests that are listed?
"But that is not the case!" you say. "Yes it is!" I counter. There was a "so called" quest chain which I split up (North Downs something) a week ago, and if somebody was interested in just one quest she suddenly faced a 15-items list of quests, but just 3 were mandatory. You can scan the change log if interested, or take my word for it. This was because the "real" quest-chain also listed every quest that was opened by its quests, and some of these were chains in themselves. The one I refer to was not part of any chain but depended on the last quest of the "real" chain. Now, that chain instead reads which quests it opens up, and the opened quests tells their prerequisites. Today, I split another such example, not as overloaded as the one a week ago, but still it was confusing to figure out how the world really looks like. And I remember that I several times have sighed and went away thinking I cannot do this now but later ... some day.
Yes, we want complete information, but I suggest that it is better presented on the quest-chain's category page. The information that is not included can be richer and more informative than anything we transclude, hence it can be more complete which equals the better information.
- Q: What can I add to the "questchain" parameter?
R: Just what is read at the quest log. Nothing else. - Q: But what about all those optional quests that opens up?
R: Read the suggested guideline and see that this information will be at the category page, though with less clutter. And within the quests themselves. And sometimes at yet other quests or quest-chain categories, too. - Q: But those quests that are optional and reads the quest-chain?
R: See 1) ... they should be included. - Q: Don't we lose information this way?
R: On the contrary, the information is added to the category page (in some rare cases it may be added to a normal page, for the complex quest-whatever-else situations). That information can be more fleshed out than what we can transclude. Hence "on the contrary", the information becomes richer. A link to such a page should be transcluded as well, or be included in the walk-through/info box. - Q: But is this not backwards?
R: Is it? How? Others would say it is backwards to be forced to sift away information that is unasked for, and in many cases is irrelevant. Is it not a big difference between "necessary information" and "sometimes-useful information"? As soon as anybody has to sift away information, is that not a sign that it is confusing rather than helpful? Even if it was not incorrect as such?
No. 1) gives that "questchain" cannot contain more information than the quest log states. This implies that quest-chain categories should be quite short. BUT, we may add much useful information to it, when needed. And we do not need to transclude everything we type there, but add links so people can find what they are looking for, back and forth.
Kneeling so that you can bash at me more easily ;) -- Zimoon 15:04, 27 October 2011 (EDT)
Continued from Quest talk: Evidence of Foulplay
Copied from : Quest_Talk:Evidence_of_Foulplay
- 2- I think the structure (in the sense of dots and numbers) at Limlight Gorge Quests can be represented easier and it has a few minor mistakes. If you don't mind Magill/RTC, I will correct some mistakes on that page [according to our dot/number guidelines - the informative and non-beautiful guidelines :)].
- 3- Magill, I don't know about any quest which has an prerequisite of the form "Quest-A OR Quest-B". That would definitely break the picture of questchains I had in mind and this would require the points If the quest has a prerequisite, add a box for Quest Chain and spit it out Zimoon posted above.
Hmmm... #2 -- Yes, that's part of the problem/issue. Depending upon where you start, the number of quests available actually changes. Note that this is Quests you accept, not quests you complete. And, if you don't start by leaving via the back gate of Stangard, you loose one quest.
And, part of the problem is the fact that the WIKI "#" nomenclature doesn't work correctly -- I.e. Starting numbering over again with a different seed number, as you can with html. There is also the question of sequence -- as in ... If you do the Prospector's Shack sequence before the Sawmill, then th quest numbered 5 (A tangled mess) is no longer number 5, but number ?8? -- and the three "Poor Prospects" quests are themselves a chain, not sub-quests of another, the way the previous 5 finding the Dwarf quests are.
Which leads directly into #3 -- if you complete certain quests, which had a preceding quest, not necessarily a "pre-requisite" quest, that preceding quest disappears.
The pre-requisite quest for A Tangled Mess -- is either NO prerequisite or The Limlight Mill. This same pattern is true for Poor Prospects: Wandering Menace and for A Venomous Culprit. All three series of quests can be started in either of two locations. That is what I was trying to explain in the narrative portion of the listing.
- Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC (talk) 14:08, 8 April 2012
- Commenting somewhat unstructured:
- Actually there are several quests in for example the North Downs which have either A or B or C. I think, but cannot find one right now, that have quest A and quest B.
- I have not come across a situation where numbering broke, but it is sometimes very tricky and requires some "empty" # along the line. A bit too tricky in my opinion. However, worse is that * and # indent differently, hence the outcome may be veeeeeeeeeeery unintuitive.
- Now again, you are discussing subjects that pertain to certain quests (or chains), go back and do that at the quests these comments relates to. This thread is supposed to be about general guidelines and make them work globally. Short and crisp examples are great, but not a discussion about the examples, that just pollute the overall goal with this thread. Thanks.
"Quest-gating" has replaced "Quest-chains"
With the advent of the Rise of Isengard Turbine changed their use of the "quest chain" value in the Quest log ... they simply STOPPED using it.
- However, beginning with Dunland the concept of "Quest Gating" was introduced, and further elaborated on with the release of The Great River, and honed in East Rohan. With the new structure of "Quest Gating" there are very few quests available to those simply wandering around. You MUST follow the pre-defined sequence of Quests, if you wish to acquire the maximum number of quests -- for the various "Complete xx quests in xxx" Deeds, for example.
- Over the years, Turbine has experimented with various forms of "Quest Sequencing," starting with simple "level requirements" and "pre-requisites" for individual quests. "Quest-chains" were an initial form of this, where a group of quests had to be completed in sequence to arrive at "the end boss and the reward."
- Quests in Dunland, The Great River, East Rohan and Wildermore, to date, have become more and more dependent upon "gating" -- the concept that you must have previously completed certain other quests prior to receiving the next one. You are "handed-off" from one "quest-hub" to another by means of "vector quests" which opens up the next quest hub quest givers to speak to you. Typically, the Epic quest line does not interact with the "normal" quest line, but is truly parallel. The one exception so far was the Langhold Quest Arc... where you could acquire your War-steed by completing that Quest Arc from either group of quests.
Update 13: Quest chains in revamped areas
Just saw a post by Budgeford, and wanted to link it here:
- An unfortunate side-effect of the revamp is that it's a wipe, but on the bright side, you can wander into any quest hub and pick up a bunch of quests that should be very different now. I recommend starting at Trestlebridge and playing through the zone in order, but you could really pick up anywhere. Good luck!
-Laineth (talk) 16:36, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- A very late comment but better late than never. It was not a complete wipe in North Downs, except that named quest-chains were wiped. There are still loads of dependencies making for simple or complex quest-chains. I believe the Quest Chain boxes are in decent order but maybe they could be walked over, maybe some can be merged or more user-friendly. — Zimoon 14:18, 26 June 2022 (UTC)