Category talk:Quest Chains
"Quest-gating" has replaced "Quest-chains"
With the advent of the Rise of Isengard Turbine changed their use of the "quest chain" value in the Quest log ... they simply STOPPED using it.
- However, beginning with Dunland the concept of "Quest Gating" was introduced, and further elaborated on with the release of The Great River, and honed in East Rohan. With the new structure of "Quest Gating" there are very few quests available to those simply wandering around. You MUST follow the pre-defined sequence of Quests, if you wish to acquire the maximum number of quests -- for the various "Complete xx quests in xxx" Deeds, for example.
- Over the years, Turbine has experimented with various forms of "Quest Sequencing," starting with simple "level requirements" and "pre-requisites" for individual quests. "Quest-chains" were an initial form of this, where a group of quests had to be completed in sequence to arrive at "the end boss and the reward."
- Quests in Dunland, The Great River, East Rohan and Wildermore, to date, have become more and more dependent upon "gating" -- the concept that you must have previously completed certain other quests prior to receiving the next one. You are "handed-off" from one "quest-hub" to another by means of "vector quests" which opens up the next quest hub quest givers to speak to you. Typically, the Epic quest line does not interact with the "normal" quest line, but is truly parallel. The one exception so far was the Langhold Quest Arc... where you could acquire your War-steed by completing that Quest Arc from either group of quests.
Use of the "questchain" parameter today
The value of the "questchain" parameter should, in virtually all situations, now be identical to the "questgroup" parameter value. When it is so, there will only be one entry displayed in the "Infobox" to the right of the quest... displaying "Quest Group <value>." (Which matches the in-game Quest Log entry.) However, the "questchain" value will cause an automatic tranclusion of "Category:<questname> Quests" and a "Questbox," labeled "Quest Chain" placed above "Walkthrough & Notes" "Questbox" at the head of the Quest.
Obviously, this requires that the "Category:<questname> Quests" be completed independently so that appropriate information can be transcluded. (I.e. while the quest itself is entered in the Category automatically, the "text" portion of the Category must be completed by hand.
- Type the quests in the order they are chained as an ordered list, using our usual Lotro-Wiki standard.
The "Walkthrough & Notes" "Questbox" may contain a statement like:
- Prerequisites: completed quest "Example Quest Name".
The following instructions apply to pre Rise of Isengard quests
How to Create Quest-chains?
- The quest template has a parameter named "questchain", specify the correct name of the chain.
- Notice: use "questchain" only when the quest states a chain, see below or see Help:Quests.
- Once the quest is saved (or at the preview) you will notice a category corresponding to the quest-chain, follow it and update or create the page. Example: Category:A Faint Gleam Quests.
- Should one or more quests be prerequisite for other quests, see below.
- Should a quest-chain span over several regions, add a notice about it and add it to regional category per your discretion.
Prerequisites
It is highly informative to mention quests or quest-chains that are required for the quest-chain you are working with. The same is true for quests or quest-chains that depend on "your chain".
However, do not include quests that are not truly required, or dependent; maybe use the walk-through box.
- Prerequisites for "your chain" are added above the chain, in italics to make them different from the real chain.
- Dependencies on "your chain" are add below the chain, also in italics.
- See example A Faint Gleam.
- If, for some reason, the prerequisites and dependencies become too much or too messy for transclusion, rather just transclude a link to the quest-chain page which may have as much text as necessary (non transcluded).
Example:
* ''Prerequisites: completed the quest-chain "[[:Category:Example Questchain Name Quests]]".'' or * ''Prerequisites: completed quest "[[Quest:Example Quest Name|Example Quest Name]]".'' THE CHAIN COMES HERE * ''This quest-chain is prerequisite for ...'' or maybe * ''The quest "Some Quest Name" is prerequisite for ...'' * ''The quest "Another Quest Name" is prerequisite for ...''
See Boilerplate:Quest for more examples and a pre-formatted quest-chain box.
The reason for the above is to provide much information to our visitors, while we do not exaggerate the quest-chains, nor are we confusing anybody with too much clutter in the quest-chain boxes.
Not Real Quest Chains
Lotro has several "unnamed quest chains" for quests that truly depend on each other. However, if no quest-chain is read at the Quest Log you should not use the "questchain" parameter but another technique. We do not want a fake name visible at the quests' info-noxes.
- Remember that "natural dotted-line quests" are not real quest-chains, and those must not be using the Quest Chain box; maybe use the walk-through box, or nothing.
Single quests
A single quest may be prerequisite for, or depending on another quest or chain. Use a Quest Chain box and text as in the code snippet above.
Several Chained Quests
If no quest chain name reads in the Quest Log, this is an "unnamed chain" (an "informal chain"). Use the following technique:
{{Questbox| Quest Chain | collapsed |
{{:Category:Quest Name Z Quests}}
}}
...where Z is the name of the final quest in the "unnamed chain".
Create a category page as usual, described above; example: Category:Reassembling the Statue Quests.
-- Zimoon (talk) 14:26, 27 October 2011 (EDT)
Splitted Quest Chains
It happens that one quest chain continues into the other, either all named or some or all are unnamed. How to deal with this?
- Named quest-chains always stand by themselves under their correct names. This implies one chain-page per named quest-chain. This will display the true chain-name at the info-box of the different quests.
- Unnamed quest-chains may be constructed per the editor's discretion and begin and end where there are no further dependency.
- Interlink the smaller chains as described above about prerequisites. Compare how Epic Books are interlinked with each other.
-- Zimoon (talk) 07:39, 8 April 2012 (EDT)
I know I know
I have created these instructions without asking or discussing with anybody. Thence, feel free to add, complement, or change so it matches our mutual consensus. However, please first read through and ponder a day or two. I believe I did not took down too far away from what we all want with this wiki, right?
Background, several times I when pottering with Locations I have come across quests with quest-chains that included every possible relative of the Bagginses family tree, with all the hooks to Brandybucks and Tooks possible. Nah, I exaggerate, but some examples I have seen have included many more quests that were NOT part of the chain than those that were.
Yes, we understand the importance of completeness, no doubt about that. The question is WHERE to have it. Should it really reside within each quest's quest-chain box? Also so when a quest does not at all relate to many other quests that are listed?
"But that is not the case!" you say. "Yes it is!" I counter. There was a "so called" quest chain which I split up (North Downs something) a week ago, and if somebody was interested in just one quest she suddenly faced a 15-items list of quests, but just 3 were mandatory. You can scan the change log if interested, or take my word for it. This was because the "real" quest-chain also listed every quest that was opened by its quests, and some of these were chains in themselves. The one I refer to was not part of any chain but depends on the last quest of the "real" chain. Now that chain reads which quests it opens up, and the opened quests links to those quests that opened them OR to the chain as such. Today I split another such example, not as overloaded as the one a week ago, but still it was confusing to figure out how the world really looks like. And I remember that I several times have sighed and went away thinking I cannot do this now but later ... some day.
Yes, we want complete information, but I suggest that it is better presented on the quest-chain's category page. The information that is not included can be richer and more informative than anything we transclude, hence it can be the more complete which equals the better information.
- Q: What can I add to the "questchain" parameter?
R: Just what is read at the quest log. Nothing else. - Q: But what about all those quests that are optional and opens up?
R: Read the suggested guideline and see that this information will be there, with the less clutter, at the category page. And within the quest itself. And sometimes at yet another quest-chain category as well, whether an informal or real chain. - Q: But those quests that are optional and reads the quest-chain?
R: See 1) ... they should be included, and indented properly. - Q: Don't we lose information this way?
R: On the contrary, the information is added to the category page (in some rare cases it may be added to a normal article, for complex quest-whatever-else situations). This information can be more fleshed out than what we can transclude, hence "on the contrary", the information is richer. - Q: But is this not backwards?
R: Is it? How? Others would say it is backwards to be forced to sift away information that is unasked for, and in many cases irrelevant. Is it not a big difference between "necessary information" and "sometimes-useful information"? As soon as anybody has to sift away information, is that not a sign that it is confusing more than helpful? Even if it is not incorrect as such?
No. 1) gives that "questchain" cannot contain more information than the quest log states. This implies that the category for quest-chains should be quite short. BUT, we may add much useful information to it, as much as we want. And we do not need to transclude everything we type there, just add links so people can find what they look for, back and forth.
Kneeling so that you can bash at me more easily ;) -- Zimoon (talk) 15:04, 27 October 2011 (EDT)
Continued from Quest talk: Evidence of Foulplay
Copied from : Quest_Talk:Evidence_of_Foulplay
- 2- I think the structure (in the sense of dots and numbers) at Limlight Gorge Quests can be represented easier and it has a few minor mistakes. If you don't mind Magill/RTC, I will correct some mistakes on that page [according to our dot/number guidelines - the informative and non-beautiful guidelines :)].
- 3- Magill, I don't know about any quest which has an prerequisite of the form "Quest-A OR Quest-B". That would definitely break the picture of questchains I had in mind and this would require the points If the quest has a prerequisite, add a box for Quest Chain and spit it out Zimoon posted above.
Hmmm... #2 -- Yes, that's part of the problem/issue. Depending upon where you start, the number of quests available actually changes. Note that this is Quests you accept, not quests you complete. And, if you don't start by leaving via the back gate of Stangard, you loose one quest.
And, part of the problem is the fact that the WIKI "#" nomenclature doesn't work correctly -- I.e. Starting numbering over again with a different seed number, as you can with html. There is also the question of sequence -- as in ... If you do the Prospector's Shack sequence before the Sawmill, then th quest numbered 5 (A tangled mess) is no longer number 5, but number ?8? -- and the three "Poor Prospects" quests are themselves a chain, not sub-quests of another, the way the previous 5 finding the Dwarf quests are.
Which leads directly into #3 -- if you complete certain quests, which had a preceding quest, not necessarily a "pre-requisite" quest, that preceding quest disappears.
The pre-requisite quest for A Tangled Mess -- is either NO prerequisite or The Limlight Mill. This same pattern is true for Poor Prospects: Wandering Menace and for A Venomous Culprit. All three series of quests can be started in either of two locations. That is what I was trying to explain in the narrative portion of the listing.
- Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC (talk) 14:08, 8 April 2012
- Commenting somewhat unstructured:
- Actually there are several quests in for example the North Downs which have either A or B or C. I think, but cannot find one right now, that have quest A and quest B.
- I have not come across a situation where numbering broke, but it is sometimes very tricky and requires some "empty" # along the line. A bit too tricky in my opinion. However, worse is that * and # indent differently, hence the outcome may be veeeeeeeeeeery unintuitive.
- Now again, you are discussing subjects that pertain to certain quests (or chains), go back and do that at the quests these comments relates to. This thread is supposed to be about general guidelines and make them work globally. Short and crisp examples are great, but not a discussion about the examples, that just pollute the overall goal with this thread. Thanks.
Update 13: Quest chains in revamped areas
Just saw a post by Budgeford, and wanted to link it here:
An unfortunate side-effect of the revamp is that it's a wipe, but on the bright side, you can wander into any quest hub and pick up a bunch of quests that should be very different now. I recommend starting at Trestlebridge and playing through the zone in order, but you could really pick up anywhere. Good luck!