User talk:Ravanel/Archive 2012

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Archive 2012

This page is an archive of Ravanel's talk page, containing 19 topics.

Nazgûl Fellow

The one I was asking about tonight was Fell-rider Nazgûl, who turns up in Quest:Instance: The Battle of Dol Baran but not (yet) anywhere else that I know of. I get the impression that we might run into him again, but since he wasn't in combat I put the information I had onto an NPC page. It seems a bit of a stretch to that template - I had to manually add in the Wraiths category, for instance. It may or may not need to be changed. -- Elinnea (talk) 00:24, 7 January 2012 (EST)

Oh, I remember which nazgûl that is now! SPOILER: I have completed the whole epic story, all quests and instances/raids now, and assure you that he doesn't return as a combat mob in the game as it is now. Of course he could always be added somewhere in an expansion, but those are worries for later. ^^ I think your page looks fine as it is, although the "Race" should be in singular form. I think the genus might be best after all, since if you look at Category:Creatures by Genus, this is also where the distinction between men and dwarves is made. The wraith should also be added to the Nazgûl page, where all the appearances of nazgûl are described. --Ravanel (talk) 07:21, 7 January 2012 (EST)

Spelling errors

My pleasure, Ravanel. Glad to help. Peyre (talk) 11:47, 12 January 2012 (EST)

Easily obtained Graphics Icons from Turbine ... the SkinDictionary files

Don't know who does/coordinates the most "Graphics" work on the wiki, but I know you do do some (more than I do), so I figured I'll start with you.

Turbine has for several releases, released "skinning files." Since I had no interest in Skinning itself, I never looked at them. However, as I started working on the Lua stuff, I needed the Icon for the "Start Menu" -- that little yellow chevron far to the left on the Control Bar. Cutting it from screen shots is "not quite" possible because of its size. So since I was putzing around with Narrel's Lua API upload (over at lotrointerface.com) I decided to look at his OTHER upload, namely the "skining file." Narrel is the Turbine Developer responsible for the Lua interface, and apparently "skinning.

In this directory: https://www.lotrointerface.com/downloads/cat5.html you will find the skiinning files from several releases. (I assume they are completely cumulative, but I don't know)

Update 5 UI Skinning Pack update - is the current file and (apparently) it contains all of the previous files as it contains a file: "Update5_Differences.txt" (The full Dictionary is in the file: SkinDictionary.txt)

The files are all in .tga (targa or raster video) format. At least on the Mac, it's trivial to simply read the .tga file with Preview, select duplicate, (at which point you can crop it as necessary) and then save it as a .png file. Pretty painless.

I now have uploaded both the original screen shot cut and the Skinning version -- Clearly a significant difference between the two! The corners are as they are because that is the actual shape as the icon is used by Turbine to "lay-up" the total image. In this case, the icon needs editing into a round shape. Which means I need to find (probably buy) an actual graphics editing program, or figure out how to do it with what I've got.

So, in short, I don't know if this is of interest to you or others, but I thought I'd just pass my "discovery" along. (Feel free to point this info out to others or copy this to someplace more "central." ... maybe I should just make this an appendage to the Help:Images file... as I'm looking at that, I see that EoD and Elinnea were recently talking about this.

Eghads... I'm chasing after rabbits again!!!

Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC (talk) 13:35, 13 January 2012 (EST)
Thanks for letting me know. I'm not involved with skins and the likes on the wiki at all, though. Either way, I do hope you have fun with the rabbits! : ) --Ravanel (talk) 08:28, 20 January 2012 (EST)

Legacy Problems Thread

Hi. I got a new messages notification, and I can see entries for some comments on a Legacy Problems Thread in Recent Changes, but I can't get to the actual thread. Any idea what is going on there? RingTailCat (talk) 11:27, 18 January 2012 (EST)

I'm trying to post a message on your talk page, but it doesn't want to work. It's stuck in loading. :S
I don't think this computer and liquid threads go well together. Luckily I have disabled them here.
This was the message I'm not able to post:

Hey RTC! I've been busy today with filling in legacies and I stumbled into some problems. Since I'm new to this subject and you've invented the stuff, I thought I'd let you know:

I hope you can help with these matters. After all, I get totally dizzy from all those numbers.

Cheers for replying here! --Ravanel (talk) 11:35, 18 January 2012 (EST)
First. I fixed the embedded quote so it wrapped.
Second. Just what did I invent? The problems ... ? I may have made some changes, but someone else did the template work. I'm more of a research scientist - I collected some of the numbers, and that is what I was doing, when someone else came along with some great templates to ease the work, but which operated under the assumption that what Turbine was doing was consistent and regular. As I've mentioned before - Turbine can do anything they want in their game. There is no requirement that any of their changes make any sense, or follow any mathematical formula, or be consistent from one legacy to another. With that scary thought behind us, we go on to observe what we see in the game, and try to record it as efficiently as possible. I don't remember all the details, but as Kadi mentions, you need to make the changes in two places. Without a bit of research, I'm not sure how to do it. I'm busy leveling my Warden to get her first legendary item. No doubt I will be catching up on the details of the legacy pages as soon as that happens. RingTailCat (talk) 11:52, 18 January 2012 (EST)
I thought you were involved with the legacy tables, but it seems I was mistaken, sorry. I am aware of how a game is designed and did not mean to say you caused problems. Sorry if I stood on any toes. Do you remember who designed the thing? He will be able to help correct it. --Ravanel (talk) 11:58, 18 January 2012 (EST)
I meant that as a good natured joke! Anyway, looking at the revision history for Legacy Cost Progression, it looks like Amphoras did the original development work on the legacy templates. RingTailCat (talk) 12:38, 18 January 2012 (EST)
Thanks a lot! --Ravanel (talk) 14:00, 18 January 2012 (EST)

Legacy Cost Table

Hi Ravanel! I had to update the Template:Legacy/Cost Table for another value, and saw you were worried about your changes - they looked good, but you also need to update Legacy Cost Progression when you update the table. I updated the ones with 5 ranks for you, but I wasn't sure what you were doing with the 9 rank addition? So if you could update that on the Cost Progression page, that'd be awesome! Thanks! Kadi (talk) 11:28, 18 January 2012 (EST)

Hej, thanks for the response, I will do that. I think we have to be more careful with added numbers. The R5 one is now incorrect. See Template talk:Legacy/Cost Table. Perhaps only add if we are near to sure that the added numbers are correct and the tables are totally filled in, like with R9? --Ravanel (talk) 11:31, 18 January 2012 (EST)

Effects

I noticed what you did with the effects page, splitting out Lore-master Effects. Do you think that's a good idea, and should I apply it to some of the others? Champion and Minstrel seem to be the two largest sections at the moment. If more effects are added, the page could get overloaded with images, which is why you were trying out the inclusion method, I presume. Or was there another reason?

I'm afraid the computer that lets me use IRC is now on the brink of death, and it refuses to start, so I won't be able to ask questions in person for a while. -- Elinnea (talk) 11:02, 20 January 2012 (EST)

I was just trying it out, and mainly did it because I thought it would make the edit page of Effects a bit neater. It also makes sense to see an overview of all <class> effects in their effects category. So yes, I still do think it's a good idea.
Another thing I was thinking about: perhaps we can make the icons look a bit smaller, like on the "<Class> Skills" pages? For long pages with so many icons this is an ease to the eyes. The Effects page needs to be corrected all over the place anyway, so we could as well fix that. What do you think?
No Elinnea on IRC... boo! It's awefully quiet there without you. We really need to find some way to sort it out. ^^ --Ravanel (talk) 13:32, 20 January 2012 (EST)
Ah, it does make sense to have the page show up in the class effects category. I'll pull out the minstrel ones when I get a chance. As for the icon sizes, I'm trying to think what I would use the page for. In some case I might see an icon in the game or in a screenshot and try to figure out what effect it goes with, and it would help to have the large icons. (Although since they're not organized by appearance, it would still be a pretty hard search.) But if I'm just looking at effects or scrolling through the list, smaller icons would be better. So I guess I lean towards making them smaller too. Maybe the effects on that page could also have a brief (2-3 words) description of what the effect does? I hate to add more clutter and work to an already incomplete page, but it would make it more useful. Someday I'll get around to finishing the minstrel effects, and maybe then I can pick another class to update. It's a little silly that Burglars and Guardians only get three each, haha.
Our family computer completely died earlier this week, and we had to buy a new one. We think there might have been a power surge. Now on my personal computer the disk won't repair, and I might have to wipe it and reinstall the operating system. Did I make backups? Of course not. *sigh* -- Elinnea (talk) 13:56, 20 January 2012 (EST)
OK, let's make them smaller then, seems we agree. I also agree it would be cool if we could add a small description for each effect, but I also have an idea about how much work that is going to be, and I'm not available for that. It's already going to be a monk's job to update all the effects! If someone else would like to add those descriptions, that would be great, of course.
Hope your computer gets better soon. *hugs* --Ravanel (talk) 07:36, 23 January 2012 (EST)

LM Changes in Update 6

  • Lore-masters now have a choice of two items that can go in their ranged slot: the Brooch of Rage and the Brooch of Regrowth. The Brooch of Rage increases the Lore-master pet’s critical rating while the Brooch of Regrowth increases the pet’s in-combat morale regeneration and evade rating. Both of these items are available via multi-output Jeweler recipes. Aside from the Tier 2 recipe which is available from the Novice Jeweler vendor, these recipes can be found via treasure for Tiers 3 through 7.
  • New talismans are available for the Lore master class: Talisman of Nature. These talismans will turn the Lore-master's Spirit of Nature pet into one of the following: Sprit of the Raven, Spirit of the Bear, Spirit of the Lynx and Spirit of the Saber-cat. These talismans are made via a multi-output, single-shot Jeweler recipe. The recipe requires Friend standing with the Men of Dunland and can be found on the Dunlending Quartermaster in Galtrev. There are also a couple of stand-alone talismans that can be found as drops in the new instance.
  • Lore-master's Improved Sticky Gourd's burning fire will now last as long as the damaging effects. No more getting burned after the fire goes out. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Magill (Contribs • User Talk) at 4:43, 2 March 2012.
No major changes, will be an easy fix on the wiki for this one. I did read the notes, but missed the news about the brooches. Finally, after years of promises we got our ranged slot! Thanks for keeping me updated. : ) --Ravanel (talk) 11:21, 5 March 2012 (EST)

Cleaning up

That's OK, do as you wish. :) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nikkisuicide (Contribs • User Talk) at 9 March 2012.

Morflak

At the risk of spoilers - I presume you've done the new epic book by now? the fellow Morflak comes back in Quest:Instance: Troubled Dreams. He's a fighter in that instance, so does that mean he needs a creature page to be inter-linked with the NPC one? Or should I add it to the same page? I'm also not sure what to put for the location. Grimbold's Camp? I have a screenshot with basic stats and coordinates, but I'm not exactly sure what to do with the info. These creature and NPC pages always confuse me. It doesn't help that I always pick the weird ones. -- Elinnea (talk) 19:32, 20 March 2012 (EDT)

Excuse me for jump in. I think he is more of an NPC, so making him an combat NPC would probably work just fine. After all, you talk to him before you fight him in Book 5 and in Book 6. RingTailCat (talk) 19:59, 20 March 2012 (EDT)
I've indeed done that part of the epic, although I'm not much further than Stangard at the moment. I don't really remember if you talk to him during that dream, I just remember you fight him. That would mean he should be regarded as a creature, but since he clearly is an NPC earlier in the storyline, I agree with RTC here. The easiest solution is to regard him as a combat NPC, I think you can put his vitals in there then as well (like the Monster Play NPCs/creatures). The choice for a combat NPC is also easily defended from the point of view that he is an NPC-questgiver earlier and then you fight him at a certain point - basically the definition of a combat NPC, right?
I hope this helped. Have fun with 'the weird ones'! : ) --Ravanel (talk) 05:43, 21 March 2012 (EDT)
@ RTC I rarely have a private conversation on here. When I have a question I pick the person who I'd guess might be most likely to have an opinion, and hope that anyone else with relevant input will notice and chime in. So no worries.
That does help. I was a little confused because most of the combat NPCs I see are friendly ones who fight on my side... But that should be easy enough to manage, and it makes sense. -- Elinnea (talk) 09:41, 21 March 2012 (EDT)

"Generic" icons...

Don't recall who was working on the "consolidation" / "Generalizing" of Icons, so I'll pick on you --

Don't know if you noticed -- when I added the Protection's Effect to Aura of Protection I used the icon which was used for similar things. However, that Icon is "significantly different" i.e. it is an Armour Chest Plate vs a Shield.

So, the first question I have is -- are their "protection" icons around someplace that I could not find?

The second question I have is ... looking at the other Icons in Category:Armour Effect Icons, I picked one which "seemed" to be of similar nature -- one which has on a single green up-arrow, and no chevrons -- which was close to what I had in the screenshots I was using for reference. (And, one assumes, that it has not changed as that particular screenshot was from the my "beta collection.") In any case. Do you have any idea if this particular effect is "stackable" as the other Icons imply? And if so, how does/should that be noted on the page. The only similar "effect" I think I recall was somehow related to "shadow" and Dark Wolves up in Enedwaith, but I can't find reference to what I think I remember.:)

At any rate, after all this babbling, (and a full night's sleep) I just uploaded the Icon I had for that effect, and switched the two. It's in Category:Armour Effect Icons.

I also need to expand/fix the "mob" information for both effects as all mobs in Nan Curunir exhibit this effect, including Goblins and Wargs. See: User:Magill/Projects-Nan_Curunir#Mobs

I"m currently questing in the area and have discovered that the "post Dunbog" areas in Dunland are missing A LOT of information, and have gotten side tracked on filling it in as I"m leveling my other tunes to 75.

Which reminds me -- (another topic) -- is it me or are the quests in Upper Barnavon NOT quests which can be done solo, despite how Turbine identifies them? I have been unable to complete the 3 major ones solo on either my lvl 75 Hunter or Rune keeper.

And, for what it's worth -- directly/indirectly related -- lotro-wiki is the only source on the web which has ANY (specific or general) information about most of Dunland or any information at all about The Great River. (Even the Lorebook has virtually nothing.) So the couple of us working those areas are really on our own!

Hoisting a tankard to us all! Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC (talk) 11:49, 27 March 2012 (EDT)

Moria Deeds

I'm seeing a discrepancy between the virtues that show up in my completed deed logs and what's in the wiki, in the old-style Moria questing deeds for Upper Levels and the Lower Deeps. I'm talking about the deeds that were removed with RoI but are still hanging around in everyone's deed logs if they started them before. For what it's worth, the Lorebook matches the virtues I see currently in the game. I don't know if they were wrong before, or if the virtues were changed when the deeds were versioned out, and it's sort of a moot point now, but it would be nice all the same if we could match the game.

I've collected them at User:Elinnea/Sandbox3: if you get a chance, and you had some characters that went through Moria, could you check what they register for virtues? -- Elinnea (talk) 13:51, 29 March 2012 (EDT)

I don't remember when, maybe with RoI or shortly afterwards, but Turbine changed the virtues granted by some of those deeds. If you had already completed a deed, I think you kept the old virtue rewards and you also got the new virtue rewards. For anyone doing them from then on they would only get the new reward. Amphoras (talkTalk to me!) 14:03, 29 March 2012 (EDT)
That sounds like a pain to document, haha. But the deeds I'm talking about were removed completely, so there's no way to earn them any more. I have a character who just entered Moria, and she's only earning the smaller deeds, for quests in The Great Delving and other small areas, rather than the 20/40/60 quests in the Central Levels. I guess they tried to redistribute the virtues earned among the new deeds. That whole thing was strange at the time though - I remember logging in and being confused that all my Moria deeds had been retconned. I was just happy to get a whole bunch of virtues and moved on. Maybe it's not worth the trouble to update? -- Elinnea (talk) 14:19, 29 March 2012 (EDT)
Hey, only just saw this, but I happen to be online at the moment on my Lore-master and if anyone has completed old deeds, it's her. She has all deeds in Moria completed. I've copied your list and will post it here with what it says for me in the completed deeds log:

Moria Quest Deeds

Italics indicate the old set of deeds

Moria Lower Deeps

Moria Central Halls

Moria Upper Levels

The non-italics ones were just the same, so I removed them to make the list a bit shorter. I'm not sure what the differences mean, that is for you to figure out. I don't know by heart when exactly I finished these deeds, nor do I know when this change was implemented. Actually, I wasn't aware myself that this had changed at all - nice that you want to look into it! You can add a note explaining on each affected deed, if you wish. I don't think it's worth more work. Does this mean I can get my virtues higher up than others, having completed them earlier already? ^^ --Ravanel (talk) 14:34, 29 March 2012 (EDT)
Ok, thanks, that helps a lot. Good thing you're a completionist! (The ones you marked as different that I hadn't were the ones my main hadn't started at the time of RoI, so he doesn't have those deeds in his log.) It looks like all of the virtues were changed in the old deeds to make way for the virtues going to the new ones. My instinct is to simply change them all to what is currently in the deed logs, without too much explanation. But I would like to update the virtue deed pages (like Idealism Deeds) as well and it'd be nice to know where these Moria deeds fit in.
I started working on this because the issue came up in a thread on the official forums. [1] When I see someone coming to the wiki and getting confused, I feel I should defend its honour by fixing the mistakes and making things more clear, when I can. -- Elinnea (talk) 15:52, 29 March 2012 (EDT)
Go ahead the way you planned, it sounds very sane to me. Btw, you just won the cuteness price for saying the "defending the wiki"-thing! ;) But I know what you mean, I always fix things as soon as possible too if forum people can't find something or don't understand it. : ) --Ravanel (talk) 17:56, 29 March 2012 (EDT)

Creature locations: Region versus Instance

Hi Rav, I wanted to hear your definition of when to use "Instance" versus region for the location parameter. Doing Evendim I found several interiors (by some called instances) as sub-categories of Category:Evendim Creatures. Trying to find aid I read at the Boilerplate:Creature: "|location = <-- Region; Unless inside an instance, then put instance name -->" but then next question is "what constitutes for an instance in this context?"

The Instances page defines 5 different kinds of instances, including skirmishes. I thought Skirmish, Quest, Raid, and World Instances are what the boilerplate refers to. But I am not certain when it comes to Public Dungeons (currently using the location-interior template) as they are accessible for anybody whenever they happen to visit the location. In my opinion such public dungeons are not different than enemy holdings or creature lairs in the open world, right? Not seldom they contain the same kind of mobs as well. But what is your thought? [ ...before I go ahead and delete some categories rashly ;) ]
-- Zimoon 07:07, 1 April 2012 (EDT)

Hey Zimoon! You found the complicated spot there. You're thinking totally the right thing: public dungeons are well... public, and therefore different from instances. Also from a practical view, they usually contain no more than 3 or 4 differently called creatures (and often these are even the same as creatures outside the instance): it's not necessary to create a whole category for these. Categorize these by region by default. Exceptions can be made if the public dungeon is very different from its surroundings, e.g. if it is of much higher level than the landscape creatures around it, plus if it has enough creatures in it to make a category worthwhile. Sarnúr comes to mind - I think it is clear why these aren't categorized together with the Ered Luin creatures. Such exceptions are rare though, and it's usually best to just categorize small public instances by region. I'm sure you'll be able to recognize what's best in each case. If you would like help with specific places though, let me know and I'll gladly help. --Ravanel (talk) 08:22, 1 April 2012 (EDT)
Thanks, then I was correct in my thinking; makes perfect sense. Perhaps the wording at the boilerplate should be rephrased to something like:
"<-- Region or Instance name; Use region for Public Dungeons -->" ?
I don't know if it needs to be explained better to cover those exceptions you mentioned. And if so I guess having a separate paragraph somewhere is best. But I won't stress it as it is not that common.
Zimoon 09:24, 1 April 2012 (EDT)
I think that would be a good idea. A small paragraph about that sounds good, I would like to keep the explanation/overview as simple and clear as possible. --Ravanel (talk) 09:30, 1 April 2012 (EDT)

Mod to Creature template for KoLM info

See: Talk:Lotro-Wiki_Contributors'_Corner#Problem_with_Creature_template It looks like the discussion we began last summer was never completed... so I did it. :)

If a Creature now has an "inspector-lvl" parameter it will display at the bottom of the Creature display. Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC (talk) 15:27, 21 April 2012 (EDT)

Riders of Rohan -- pre-order quests

Check out the collection of quests I just put up for the new RoR "teaser" quests. Especially the Talk page for Quest_Talk:Herding_to_the_Trollshaws --Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC (talk) 07:03, 5 June 2012 (EDT)

Cool that you're working in this. This means you bought the expensive RoR pack, I presume? I haven't yet and am not decided what to buy (I don't have that much money right away), so I'll keep away from some spoilers until I do. --Ravanel (talk) 05:39, 6 June 2012 (EDT)
Actually, one more thing. Do you know if you get the "teaser" quests only if you buy the expensive pack? Or do you get it regardless of which version you pre-order? --Ravanel (talk) 08:09, 6 June 2012 (EDT)
I asked on the forums, and Celestrata confirmed that those quests are for people who buy the legendary edition. I presume it will work for either pre-order or post-launch purchase, but unless they change their minds it will be exclusive to that pack. It's too bad - I really would have liked to try it. Now I'm considering waiting until post-launch to see if it ever goes 50% off like RoI. -- Elinnea (talk) 08:51, 6 June 2012 (EDT)
Thanks! That does suck, though, horse session play makes me curious. I'd really like to try that as well, but I wonder if it's still as much fun once RoR has already launched, feels like a real teaser thing. --Ravanel (talk) 09:41, 6 June 2012 (EDT)

Major revamp to the Ettenmoors coming with Riders of Rohan release

See: Talk:Ettenmoors#Major revamp to the Ettenmoors coming with Riders of Rohan release Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC (talk) 19:54, 21 July 2012 (EDT)

Thorin's Gate(s) -- Thanks

Thanks for spotting my mistake. But "Thorin has only one gate" is not correct, hehe, though I always mix the two of Thorin's Gate and Thorin's Gates.
-- Zimoon 17:12, 15 August 2012 (EDT)

Ooh, of course this is was meant with my tongue in my cheek ;) -- Zimoon 06:43, 16 August 2012 (EDT)
Heh, unbelievable! I should have known that the location expert couldn't have made a mistake. :) --Ravanel (talk) 04:50, 21 August 2012 (EDT)

Abilities

Hi Rav, I was noticing your fixes on effect icons, a nice job indeed. But ... what would you think of tweaking the Effect template so that we could rather use : {{:EffectName}} at creature pages? And that this displayed as

ICON Effect-link a useful description of the effect

Today all of that is a lot of manual labour, perhaps not much to worry about at effects with only one or two "users", but other effects are used by loads of creatures. Today it is a daunting task to add an effect to a creature, link to the effect, find the icon and add that too plus add the "|24px" thingie, either blindfoldedly copy either description or effects and make it italic font style. Not seldom the last part is the hardest, I have seen many creatures by now where the "lore-styled" text is simply non-informative. In best case the editor has tried, with different results for the same effect at different creatures pages ;) Considering all of the above it is a surprise why nobody has not completed it all the way.

So, we can already use {{:EffectName|mode=imlink}} to achieve the above. Except the following:

  1. The template leaks category --- meaning that using this for the Silly effect at the page the monster Zimoon will also add Zimoon to the category for the Silly effect. Example: Category:Dread Effects where you find several Oath-breakers.
  2. The Icon is not transcluded as 24px size but as full size.
  3. No description comes with the im-link thingie. Preferably a clear and short but "useful" description, sometimes the "description" parameter is OK but more often it is too lore-style to be clearly understood, sometimes the "attrib" parameter is OK, but it is often multi-line or could be shortened considerably with retained, dense content. Perhaps a new "display-text" parameter.

What are your thoughts about this, Rav?

BTW: The boilerplate suggests using 24px. 24 is a multiple of 32 while 25 is not. Probably the image-scaling algorithm will do a slightly better and perhaps faster job with multiples than having to do a 25/32 number crunching job. I may be wrong though, but the mathematician in me thinks not ;)
-- Zimoon 09:24, 23 October 2012 (EDT)

Sorry to bother you again, Rav, I know you ain't editing as much as you used to. However, you are one of the more knowledgeable Lore-masters. Would you mind look at the recent question about "Abilities" at Talk:Boilerplate:Creature? Many thanks in advance. Best greetings -- Zimoon 04:29, 25 October 2012 (EDT)
Hey hey. I'm glad to help out anywhere I can, although I'm a bit restricted for time. I'm very busy with my studies, so I barely have time to hang around here, let alone play the game in the first place!
My thoughts about the "Abilities" part on creature pages:
  • 24px instead of 25px... you must've changed that in the Boilerplate then. We once agreed on 25px, might be before you were active on the wiki. I don't think the amount really makes a difference (the 25px look fine, really), but I don't really care. We can do 24px if it makes you happy, I don't care as long as we use the same (smaller than 32px) size per creature page.
  • The EffectName code seems like a really smart idea! It will fix a lot of stuff in the future if we have to adapt effects (or for instance, create generic icons). However, I need to know: is it possible at all to make it work so that the icons will be made smaller? (24 px) It would be great to implement these codes everywhere eventually, but the big icons are not so nice and break up the page a bit. It would be best to fix the code so it can make them smaller first.
  • We will need to fix the code for not leaking categories as well. I suggest we start using them when these two issues are fixed (unless we're very sure we can fix it in a very short time).
Hope that was of any help, and sorry that my answer was so late. --Ravanel (talk) 07:34, 30 October 2012 (EDT)
Thanks for your time and I wish you all the best with your studies, they have top prio of course, and real life ;)
- If it is smaller icons you want, hehe, then 24 is less than 25. I just thought that 24 is exactly 2/3 of 32 and also a a multiple of 2 which for a computer scientists means no (or almost no) decimals when computing, and THAT means performance gains, decimals are expensive.
- I believe imlink should be able to scale down to 24, but maybe the code must be tweaked. I will look at that tomorrow.
- Elinea made some code changes during the weekend and I believe it does not leak now, or does it still?
-- Zimoon 15:38, 30 October 2012 (EDT)

Creature template

Hi again, and sorry to bother.

You changed the template to support The East Wall and The Wold rather than East Rohan. The two are areas, not regions. Are the two that large and complex that we cannot use "region" which is what is the suggested "location"? I just remember how I was told not to use areas but region for creatures ;) But those new areas may be big enough to justify the exception (as also Moria does), do they? -- Zimoon 15:44, 30 October 2012 (EDT)

Uhm, oops, I must admit I didn't think of the formalities. However, the areas of the East Rohan region are fairly large, each with multiple quest hubs and own landscape and all have their own maps. In that way, they are really much like Moria. It feels very illogical to me to do anything else than categorize them per map. I added the two categories because there were creatures to go in there, but the other areas should also be added, of course. I hope this explains it a bit, and I hope I didn't upset anyone. : ) --Ravanel (talk) 18:44, 31 October 2012 (EDT)
Not at all, but I was the one being bashed at (by you btw) when having similar suggestions for the lower level areas, that is why I asked ;)
I guess if the creatures really are different from area to area it makes sense, but if they indeed cross border then what...?
We recently had this long discussion which was sourced in mobs in Angmar, same-name but somewhat different, appearing in Ram Duath as well as much-higher locations. Should we split page or have unified pages for those same-name creatures, that was the problem. We really did not arrive anywhere.
For me as a categorizer maniac I do not disagree, but your decision actually means that we should do the same for (m)any other region. Even if there will not be more than a handful to a dozen creatures each category.
However, the laid-back and lazy guy in me also sees possible problems, certainly so when close to the border of "next" area and inexperienced editors will do wrong, inevitably. My experience is that creatures always roam over the border and I have seen many examples when editors have added such stray creatures to the neighbouring area, though the creatures are not at all significant for the area and should not be listed there. I mean, we do not list exceptions, do we?
So, the bigger question is, do we want the hassle and extra maintenance with more categories? And policing?
What benefits do we have with extra categories? Maybe it is worth moving from region to area categorization? Maybe not? What are the benefits?
I am not against it really, but I ask since you a year ago had a firm, opposite preference.
-- Zimoon 16:39, 6 November 2012 (EST)
Creature locations are not random. Every creature is tethered to a very specific spawn point. The creature may spawn at the spawn point, or within a small area around it. That spawn point determines the type, level range, difficult of the creature. Creatures reset when they are drawn too far from their spawn point. Their spawn point also determines if they are within the area where they will contribute to quest objectives, either by dropping quest items or counting towards slayer tallies.
You can observe this in a couple of ways. If you aggro a creature, and lead it across a band, division or region boundary, it will still drop the items and count for quests the same as if it was defeated on top of its spawn point.
If you aggro a creature from outside an area and lead it to a location where local mobs would satisfy quest objectives, that non-local creature will not count or drop the desired item.
A creature needs to be identified by the location where it spawns, not the location where you are when you observe it, or attack it, or defeat it.
-- RingTailCat (talk) 18:19, 6 November 2012 (EST)
Truth. But that does not answer the question posted for Rav if we are going to change from region to area categorization. A creature should read its correct location under "Location", that is basic. But should, or should we not, move from region-only to area or even more fine-graded categories, such as for NPCs and quests? The advantage is better granularity, of course. The disadvantage is editors mistakes. And of course, there exist many creatures that indeed span over a few areas and they drop the very same loot and have exactly the same characteristics, how to deal with those at the "Location" parameter of the creature template??
When it comes to split same-name pages I have already bashed myself publicly at Talk:Creatures#Longer Discussion on Same-name Creatures -- 2, the more I edited such pages the more clear it was that they quickly become cluttered and harder to read, they lose details about loot drops (of we care much about that), etc.
Regarding quests: It is possible they drop the expected loot if you "pull them" outside the indicated zone, I have not tested that. But I have tested killing them outside the indicated zone and that does not count for quests (pulling them from a location where the name was blinking under the radar to a location where the name stopped blinking under the radar). For quests I am quite sure the quest-zones are completely disconnected from the creatures as such, they will just somehow be "tagged" for the quest if within the zone at some important time. I guess the easiest explanation is to refer to creatures that are roaming an area, but only when killing those at a landmark updates a certain quest.
Either way, merged-or-split pages for same-name creatures is another topic (link just above) and this was an honest question why Rav changed her mind from last year ;) And if possible benefits are worth the extra job it requires ... and it will require extra job: patrolling and verifying edits of less skilled editors, submitters must find the correct page if we must split page because same-entity-creatures roam two or more areas, double-check against "stray roamers" and probably more. The only part in me that like it is the categorization-maniac ;)
-- Zimoon 01:49, 7 November 2012 (EST)
Please don't change anything in the way the other creatures are organized. We already had a discussion about those in the past and I don't want to reopen it. They are fine.
The point is, if areas are really large, and have their own maps, we can reorganize them per map. This is the case in Moria, and for the rest only so far only for East Rohan. The point is, I don't care whatever they're called 'officially' by us on the wiki or whatever, but you can see East Rohan as a super-region, and the others (Norcroft, the Wold etc) as regions under it. Each of these has an extensive map with loooads of areas and landmarks. They are simply too big to put all the "East Rohan creatures" in one category. Riders of Rohan is an expansion that's at least just as big as Moria, after all! I'm not sure if you've been in Eastern Rohan much, but if you have been, surely you must understand.
I haven't seen any overlapping creatures in East Rohan. If we do find creatures of different levels with the same name, we can regard them the same as we always do. E.g. Mob (Norcrofts) and Mob (Sutcrofts). Let's not make any problems when they're not there.
And once more, just to make sure, I did not suggest changing region to area categorization in the template generally. Please.--Ravanel (talk) 03:52, 7 November 2012 (EST)
Fair enough, let maps decide then :-) -- Zimoon 16:03, 7 November 2012 (EST)

Thanking you :)

Thank you, Nemesis for your prompt fix to my problem :)

Wynnie (talk) 06:51, 5 November 2012 (EST)

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