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Previous Talk Page archives can be found at:
file name covers date range
Archive 1 May 2011 to August 2011
Archive 2 August 2011 - November 2011
Archive 3 Liquid Threads (LQT) stuff - no data
Archive 4 September 2012 - December 2012
Archive 5 January 2013 - December 2013
Archive 6 January 2014 - December 2014
Archive 7 January 2015 - December 2015
Archive 8 January 2016 - December 2016
Archive 9 January 2017 - December 2017
Archive 10 January 2018 - December 2018
  • Being the Archive of my Talk page - January 2016 to December 2016

Erebrandir's Horseshoe

If there is some reason I should not identify the quest that Erebrandir's Horseshoe comes from, let me know. It seems like it was a mistake that someone reverted it. Was it a mistake or an unspoken rule? No message was left so I have no idea how to interpret it. Thanks. Acatlover2 (talk) 14:43, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

The source of an item is a normal entry in the Item description. So I would guess that it was felt to be redundant.
This whole Horseshoe "debate" has been a significant inside joke. Sapience used to get questioned about it on a regular basis. Today, I doubt that any of the current Devs have any idea what it does or does not do (with the possible exception of MadeOfLions). . . unless they have coded a new Item/Quest/Deed (etc.) which makes use of it.
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 20:15, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
Ohh I see. It's not the item page, that one.. it's the effect page. I was confused because it didn't say (effect) specifically, sorry about that. Thank you for clearing that up, as I'm not a fan of edit wars, I figured I'd just ask. Idk how I feel about redundancy. I think some of it might help reduce click-clicking until you find the datum you're looking for. But others may feel different I can see that. That page is the one that appears first in the google results so I personally would prefer it to be as comprehensive as possible so people don't have to wander a bit to find what they're looking for. I personally didn't know how to get it until recently simply because I didn't think that the item page would be any different. Actually I think my first level 100 did that quest and didn't choose it as the quest reward simply because I was in too much hurry. The second one I tried to find out where it was and couldn't (due to misunderstanding of the format), and finally the third one I got it and came here to record my discovery. Sorry if I was overzealous.
As for the effects... well all I can say is I'm not touching a relic master without it anymore and I don't think I'm imagining it.  :) Acatlover2 (talk) 05:39, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
I just reviewed the entire page here -- and it is missing a lot. The References are much more pointed than the author's attempts to "paraphrase" them . . . as a researcher, going back to the original sources is always revealing. I even had to fix one of the embedded URLs. :)
You pretty much hit the nail on the head right here:
Originally posted by Acatlover2:
"Idk how I feel about redundancy. I think some of it might help reduce click-clicking until you find the datum you're looking for. But others may feel different I can see that. That page is the one that appears first in the google results so I personally would prefer it to be as comprehensive as possible so people don't have to wander a bit to find what they're looking for."
This illuminates two very basic questions and a debate we have had here on the Wiki multiple times --
  • The first is: How do people get here? -- Do they "drill-down" from the home page or do they "land" on a specific page via an external search engine? 
Remember, "searching" itself is an 'Art-form,' not a science -- there is a widely held belief in the infallibility of 'Google-ing!' Except that the techniques of searching are NOT taught (except in Computer Science, and then, not of Google-ing), nor is an understanding of, or the interpretation of, the results of the search engine. And who has ANY idea at all of how the different search engine algorithms work, i.e. how they color the results that you get based on your past searches!
Compare searching for "Erebrandir's Horseshoe" against "Erebrandir's Horseshoe effect." The latter result is no different than the former. And who in their right mind (even using the WIKI search engine) would guess to prefix the search term with "Item."
  • Second, Once landed, how do they find additional information? -- Do they follow links or Categories (if they even know how to recognize or find them), and/or use the WIKI Search, or do they go back to their Browser and Search again? And perhaps more important and likely one that "wikipedians" forget -- does the "lander" have any idea how to use a WIKI? The answer to this is compounded by the particulars of the mechanics of the browser in use - PC or Tablet based versions of Safari, Firefox, Opera, IE and now Edge.
However, everything is a two-edged sword. On top of those comments we throw in the "commercial" aspects of a WIKI -- It costs money to host and provide Internet connectivity. That "cost" is covered in one of two ways -- typically as an expense paid out of someone's 'deep pockets', contributions, etc. However, even that method is mediated by the concept of "clicks" i.e. in our case, banner display ads! Here at LOTRO-Wiki, unlike many other sites, we have made a conscious decision to restrict advertising to Banner Ads. So, more page displays mean more revenue. As it is, with the fall-off in LOTRO players (before Ad-blockers), the revenue is also barely enough to continue funding the Wiki's hosting fees.
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 16:32, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
Hmm, you're right, there's a lot to consider. Given all of this, I think I will amend it to point out the difference and more obviously show that the other link will not just redirect to the same page (my first assumption), I can see how it might be helpful to have people go from there to the item page, then the quest instead of eliminating one step. One extra click isn't much to ask. Especially since I agree that the limitation on ads makes it much more relaxing to read. That will end my concern that people won't find the information because they make the same error I did. Acatlover2 (talk) 18:15, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Firstly sorry for screwing up your format but I do not have lots of time and I want to ask a quick question so here it is is there some way to join people in an active chat channel and if there is how can I join I tried to join that mibbit thing but it terminated my connection do I have to make an account for that? Ilyarad (talk) 11:35, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

Again sorry for screwin up the format but what is an ICQ channel and please refrain from using any termonology cuz I propably dunno about it and have to ask you again what it means?

What I mean is a chat thing like msn or steam something that will let you talk to them in real time and see what you have typed and notify them that you have typed soemthing and let them react in the same thing without having to go all sorts of pages or having to reload excuse me for my bad english but I get that the gist of it gets across and that's what it is about :P Ilyarad (talk) 11:52, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

Ok thanks for your info so far and how do I get to join a IRC channel cuz the discription on the contribution channel said only this is it gave a link and didnt said how to join it or am I missing something important

Categorize Quests

Till Eastern Gondor we always have Subcategories like Category:Lossarnach Quests and Subsubcategories like Category:Arnach Quests (Without Regionnames). Only in Old Anórien we have Subcategories with the Regionname at the Categoryname like Category:Old Anórien: Minas Tirith Quests and no Subsubcategories. As you changed the Categorynames in Far Anóerin to the Old Anórien style I would ask is there a reason for this new Style? My personal opinion is, that I like the older Style much more :-). Barny (talk) 17:10, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

The category is listed in the actual quest box. (See: Explanation of Parameters drop-down in Boilerplate:Quest
Turbine itself has not been consistant with the usage here.
It's really a toss-up what gets used. I made the change simply because there are no settlements in Far Anórien -- i.e. A settlement is defined as a location which offers SERVICES to players. At least in Build 1, based on the Map icons, they simply don't exist. It is possible that will change, but I don't think so. Far Anóerin is an "empty" area; primarily grazing land, and the land of the Woses -- no settlements of man, elves or dwarves. Similarly, there are only two areas and they are pretty devoid of "Man" environments.
We'll see what changes this weekends's Bullroarer yield.
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 18:18, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
Ok, i also checked it now. You are right. Thank you for the explanation. Barny (talk) 11:52, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

A Brief History of Time According to Sapience

Hey, Magill! I was about to create a page for Sapience's article on SoonTM to be preserved here when I noticed you had moved the page over to one of your user pages without leaving a redirect. Was there a reason for that? --Gestrid (talk) 00:03, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Actually, I ddin't move it, one of the other admins did back in June of 2014 - along with it's companion piece: "User:Magill/I don't think it means what you think it means."
(I note that the link at the bottom of the former did not get pointed to the latter.)
I had created those pages when the Lorebook was shut down, which is where they were originally posted.
I had not been aware that Sapience (apparently) created a new web page for SoonTM before he left. It is not linked to anything that I know of.
I don't recall if there was any discussion about it at the time. There may have been some on the IRC as it was still being ussed back then.
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 00:34, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
Can I have your permission to recreate the page there? It only feels right to ask you since the page was originally moved into your user pages. --Gestrid (talk) 00:46, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
It's just as easy to move the two pages back. Which I've just done.
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 01:03, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
K, thanks. I'm gonna work on the formatting and make sure everything's up to date with the URL linked above. --Gestrid (talk) 01:06, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
I've updated the formatting and added a reference to the article linked above. However, I'm not sure how to make the Contents right-justified. How do I do that? (Also, the only reason I knew of the updated webpage is because it was linked in his forum sig when the forums were moved to that new system.) --Gestrid (talk) 01:45, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
Also, the reason I didn't suggest moving I don't think it means what you think it means is because I noticed a problem with the paragraphs. As an example, look at the very end of the paragraph under Hotfix. I couldn't find any source material to copy from. --Gestrid (talk) 01:48, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
Update to last comment: I grabbed a copy of that companion post from Wayback Machine (the Internet Archive) here. I didn't realize the "..." at the end were actually there in the post. My bad. --Gestrid (talk) 01:58, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
Both pages are original content cut and pasted from the Lorebook where they were originally posted in Sapeence's "blog." The page you found was a re-write.
As for right justification, I don't believe that MediaWiki or Wikipedia Markup supports right justification. I can't say that I've ever seen anything other than "ragged-right" justification used. The page on the forums is in "vBulletin" format, completely different syntax.
"Hotfix" makes perfect sense. the ". . ." at the end is called and elipse and leads directly into the enext entry "Patch." The same is true of the Patch entry.
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 02:05, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
I couldn't find the original, even when using the Internet Archive. It seems it never cached that page before 2015. Of course, by that time, the page itself redirected to , which doesn't exist.
When I said "right-justified", I meant something like where the Contents area is on Epic Quests, for example.
I'll revert the "..." part, then.
-- Gestrid (talk) 03:07, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
By the way, what do you think of the two pages? Should I change anything else?
A Brief History of Time According to Sapience
I don't think it means what you think it means
-- Gestrid (talk) 03:09, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
The "Contents" is generated by a template called by "{{toc-right}}". In that template, the positioning is controlled by actual HTML code generated by the template.
Other things, like the insertion of files (i.e. images) is controlled by similar parameters.
You can do somewhat similar things with tables, but more difficult.
If you want the Table of Contents which appears at the top to appear on the right, just put "{{toc-right}}" at the top of the page. Or to eliminate it completely, use "__NOTOC__"
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 04:26, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
Thanks, Magill! I used __NOTOC__ on both of them. Had I known that existed, I would've asked about that instead. -- Gestrid (talk) 04:48, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Talk page left behind after a move

You did a move of Loot Items Scaling but left Item Talk:Loot Items Scaling behind.

Mogafi (talk) 13:30, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Update 18.1 on Main Page

You added Update 18.1 to the main page but forgot to change what it says under "Current Version". -- Gestrid (previously Super3588) (talk) 18:57, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Scaling items

The description in Boilerplate:Item#Scaling Items is nice. A problem is the different number of needed stat values (Example Item:Greater Steadfast Ring of Blocking or Item:Greater Resolute Sword of Penetration). There I used different style="width: x%". Barny (talk) 17:21, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Working on some Special:WantedTemplates

Hey, working on Special:WantedTemplates and have found the top items are on personal .css pages for other pages. Looks like I need Editor to be able to fix those, or someone else who already has the permissions can do it. To fix it, add /*<nowiki>*/ at the very top of the page and /*</nowiki>*/ at the very bottom as I have done in diff 780743. Thanks. Technical 13 (talk) 19:29, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Done. -- Gestrid (previously Super3588) (talk) 20:08, 20 July 2016 (UTC)


Do you have a template that you SUBST: for the Tips section on my talk page - User talk:Technical 13#Tips? I'm asking because it needs to be updated with the changes to {{Stub/Construction}} which is now looking for just a username instead of a talk page link. Technical 13 ( t | e | c | [ h] ) 12:25, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

This is one of those yes and no answers. Basically if you look at the bottom of the page User:Magill/ToDo at the bottom under "stuff - template idea" you will see the code that I simply cut and paste to accounts. I've just never gotten around to bothering to create an actual template because the promotion process is not accomplished by simply copying the information to the Users talk page. (I just updated it with the changes to the tag.)
  • The one question I have is - Why "Contributions" - It is not a particularly useful bit of information.
  • There is also the issue of "Discussion" vs. "Talk" vs "Message" -- The page has always been called a "talk page" (as on the Wikipedia) even though MediaWiki labels the tab "Discussion" on the tab. Changing it to message is one of those "huh?" type changes.
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 14:39, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Promotion Template

Hey, Magill. I just wanted to let you know that I finally got Template:Promotion, your idea from two years ago, into a working format. You can use it by just typing {{subst:Promotion|NON-PLURAL PROMOTION LEVEL}}. (For example, {{subst:Promotion|Ninja}}.) It's important that you use the singular form of the user level because the template adds an "s" of the word to create the wikilink to the page describing their rights and privileges (ex. while also using it so that the wikilink appears as, for example, Ninja. The template even adds your signature without you having to type out the four tildas! Gestrid (talk) 13:17, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

Very cool, thank you. Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 19:43, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
As a side note, I've recently been importing some user scripts that I use on Wikipedia and putting them up here. Everything on Wikipedia is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License, so, as long as I attribute the authors of the scripts, they're usable here. You can take a look at them, if you'd like. They're pretty useful. Gestrid (talk) 21:31, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
One more thing having to do with templates: I've fixed some of the problems over at Template:Welcome/test (specifically the one where the nowiki tags weren't working with the four tildes). Would you mind looking it over to see if I missed anything and possibly copying it over to the "live" one if it looks good? Gestrid (talk) 05:14, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

catergory tree


I like what you did by adding a categorytree for the Badgers page instead of what I was doing, and the use of noinclude. However there is a formatting issue now - the category bar at the bottom now goes to the left of screen, and covers the sidebar. Do you know how to fix this? Cheers. Noddi (talk) 05:47, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

The problem was attempting to indent the CategoryTree using colons. Using Blockquote works better.
See your talk page for a more detailed discussion.
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 11:59, 22 October 2016 (UTC)