Help talk:Items

Item namespace

I think items should be moved to the default namespace and have a category, and not use the Item: namespace. Using the Item: namespace makes is confusing and makes it hard to find things in the search. It also adds an extra word you have to type every time you refer to an item. It duplicates content since in some cases there's a page for an item and an Item: page for the item. It also causes ambiguity for editors since they can refer to an item or a page about an item. Wowpedia puts items in the default namespace with a category. --Sigibert (talk) 22:14, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Afaik, search ignore namespaces, eg. it search only the part after namespace, if anything namespace can narrow the scope of the search to provide relevant results.

I'm not aware of a duplicate pages for item and Item: do you have an example? It should be probably corrected.

In my opinion typing the extra 5 chars when linking is not an issue, most templates that work with item are adding the namespace themselves anyway.

It would be quite a large project to convert namespace, if anything, i would actually like to make more namespaces for title, deed, effect, skill. --Drono (talk) 08:06, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

The namespace makes it unnecessarily difficulty to use LOTRO wiki. If I type in "Marks" to the search bar, Item:Mark was the 17th hit. Even if you type the item name perfectly, you will always have to sift through search results to find the item because it will never take you directly to it. I find this makes it more difficult to use the wiki, not easier.

The other issue I ran into with the namespace was creating a redirect for "Marks" means we have to sprinkle redirects to the Item: namespace in the main namespace. Maybe the cross-pollination there is not an issue though. --Sigibert (talk) 10:28, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Item:Mark is first autocomplete suggestion for me when typing Mark and takes me there directly, i rarely need to use the search as the autocomplete in most cases finds the correct result before finishing the whole name, and in the cases i'm using the search it is desired to actually show me the search result.

Not sure what is the point of the redirect, but it should have the Item: namespace too - to avoid the cross-pollination.

Can you please explain some of your earlier points:

• It duplicates content since in some cases there's a page for an item and an Item: page for the item. - Can you show such example?
• It also causes ambiguity for editors since they can refer to an item or a page about an item. - I'm not sure what you mean here, what is the difference between item and page about an item?

--Drono (talk) 11:01, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

• See Motes of Enchantment and Item:Motes of Enchantment.

I see that autocomplete works better than typing in a query and hitting enter. Don't you think that typing in a query and hitting enter should work? Shouldn't I be able to type in "mark" or "marks", hit enter, and be taken to a page about Marks? That seems so utterly reasonable to me that I am surprised to be getting such push back on me using the site wrong. --Sigibert (talk) 13:49, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

As Drono said, it would be a massive project to change this now, and massive is a gross understatement.

There is an indexer that continuously keeps track of all contents. From my memory it works like: it regularly scans everything, and upon each edit it takes new/edited contents into its database. It takes both the namespace+name and the name alone into the database, so you do not have to type the namespace.

In any indexing/search system there are certain words, usually short words, which are so common that suggestions will be bloated with irrelevant pages. And that was not the case here. You searched for plural "marks" and when doing that in the little search field in the upper/right corner the suggestions are correct, first is "Quest:Marks ...", the only entry with "marks". If instead searching for singular "mark", then "Item:mark" is the very first suggestion and after that follows pages named "mark ...".

In the end of the day I think the search-suggestion system works very well but it can/should not ignore user input, which is what you are asking for, kind of. Had you just typed somewhat slower you would have seen "Item:Mark" just after your 4^th keystroke. I think it takes less than 1/4 second on a decent broadband for suggestions to show up. Yeah, we usually type a lot faster than that but in this particular case slowness had helped. ;-) — Zimoon 13:30, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Typing in a search query and hitting enter is not the recommended way to use the site. That is unreasonable to me. I don't expect the crufty system to change, but I do think it should. --Sigibert (talk) 13:44, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes, doing that works if the first option of the suggestions is the correct one and it is highlighted. Which it is for singular "mark". Otherwise you will end up at either the wrong page, or at the larger search page.

I am sorry to read that you feel pushed back. We do not intend to. And that is why I tried to explain how the machinery works and why it does not always work the way you assumed, just to keep the discussion technical and not personal. It is not about "us" or "Lotro-Wiki" but about the software we rely on. I do not know if any better indexer/search systems exist and are compatible with our wiki-system but if it does, please let us know. But from my daily work I have learned that often it is simpler to learn the system than trying to bend it :-( — Zimoon 14:06, 12 January 2022 (UTC)