User talk:Matthew.ZellmerBot

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I am a Robot/Bot for User:Matthew.zellmer. I am used to make simple changes to numerous pages at once. Please goto User Talk:Matthew.zellmer for comments or requests. I do NOT check this account often.

Possible issue with your last bot run

Item:Bulk Low-quality Calenard Ingot Recipe -- had a bad disambigpage entry, which prevented the page from displaying correctly, including in any category.
  • Note that the "disambigpage" entry must match the actual page name. In this case, it appears that the page should have been moved to its new name.
But there was no move associated with the action -- Don't know your Bot's intent, or if it was just an oversight.
(Easy to see the difference -- change the disambigpage entry and preview the page -- the Recipe box and item box switch locations, and the Category goes away.)
I happened to notice it strictly because of Kollins comment, which wasn't accurate.
I've left the disambigpage matching the page so it displays correctly, but therefore it is the wrong name.... but I wasn't in the mood to track down the "what links here" pages. :)
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 07:21, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
Yea Savi saw that too and we are trying to nail this down and get it fixed. Here is the whole of our conversation.
Heya! Ran into something that may have been an unintentional consequence of a few of your bot edits. I was glancing at the uncategorized pages list and noticed these pages: Item:Bulk Low-quality Calenard Ingot Recipe, Item:Low-quality Riddermark Ingot Recipe (Jeweller), and Item:Low-quality Riddermark Ingot Recipe (Weaponsmith) were not categorized. Out of curiosity I manually reverted that last change your bot made (quality to grade) and doing so auto-categorized the page again. I'm guessing that possibly the template will have to be adjusted first? Just wanted to draw your attention to it; happy botting :D --Savi (talk) 15:30, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
Yea I saw that too. Its a bigger problem then I thought, I started to tackle it, then realized about half-way thru that this was a naming, category and title issue. See my comments User:Matthew.zellmer#updating the crafting recipes and items Game Update 12. I kept a list of all the pages I made changes too so I could revert them all back if I needed too. I thought these were named wrong in the first place (wrong name:Low-quality) then changed them to the right name Low-grade. But that just changed all the page links! It didn't change the page titles or categories. We can fix all of it at once if I need too. But the scope of the problem (if it is a problem) was way larger then I originally thought. Help me out here. Was I right in thinking the real name of these items is Low-grade? I can do the appropriate name changes and title corrections (and redirects) all at once and if your willing, you can fix the template. Matthew.zellmer (talk) 15:52, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
Heh, welcome to the wiki *evil chuckle* You go to fix one thing and it usually always leads to multiple other things. To be honest, I cannot recall off the top of my head if the title is low-grade or low-quality (or perhaps a mix). My gaming time has been diverted of late elsewhere...but I can do some checking once I get home this evening and get back to you on that. And sure, once you figure out what categories need changed for the template auto I will try to delve into that and adjust if for ya. --Savi (talk) 17:31, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
The bot I used is pretty dumb and just performs a find/replace ONLY in the text of a page. GUYS! Thanks for switching these back. It sounds like the page has a bad disambigpage entry or a title issue. So is the name Item:Bulk Low-quality Calenard Ingot Recipe wrong? Or did LOTRO mess it up since the other two recipes are titled Item:Bulk Medium-quality Calenard Ingot Recipe and Item:Bulk High-quality Calenard Ingot Recipe and all three produce grade ingots (not quality ingots)?
I can fix it either way. But for now I am going to create a redirect to help folks out Item:Bulk Low-grade Calenard Ingot Recipe that sends people to Item:Bulk Low-quality Calenard Ingot Recipe. There are already redirects for all the quality ingots sending them to grade ingots (e.g. Item:Medium-quality Calenard Ingot sends to Item:Medium-grade Calenard Ingot
I am going to review the recipe on LOTRO tonight and see what the silly name really is and then I can fix it properly. Matthew.zellmer (talk) 13:46, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
Sorry it took me an additional day to check on those ingot recipes for ya. My metalsmith shows that the normal recipes for the last 3 tiers are indeed __-grade. Low/Medium/High-grade Calenard Ingot, Low/Medium/High-grade Riddermark Ingot, and Low/Medium/High-grade Eorlingas Ingot. The bulk recipes from the skirmish camp also list -grade as the name. Its possible that this name was changed in a previous update to the game...but you'd need to scan the update forum posts if you wanted to see if that was the case, but currently they are listed as -grade. This being the case it may be better to have the -quality be a redirect to -grade. Hope that helps clarify things a bit --Savi (talk) 04:06, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
Great! I took a FRAPS video last night of the same thing. Ok I will start the change-over process using the naming Rules outlined below. With the redirect in-place the links and pages should look ok, but I will inventory what tasks need to occur before making any changes.
  • manual change page recipe titles using Move
  • change recipe; name, disambigpage and other properties
  • manual/bot change all links that connect to new pages using Special:WhatLinksHere
  • manul change template?! so it categorizes things better
  • manual check on all the product ingots (e.g. Item:High-grade Calenard Ingot) and make sure they ALSO have grade in there name
  • visual review all categories for missteps and mishaps
  • visual all pages related and use all links to verify desired result

Good luck with the edits! Just to leave a note with the current categorization on the recipe template (which you could find as well but figured it was handy to have listed)If you are wanting to change any of this let me know the specifics and I can see if I can adjust it for ya. Currently:

  • If there is a type parameter, then adds Category:(typevalue) Items
  • If profession, Category:(proficiencyvalue) (professionvalue) Recipes & Category:Crafting Recipes
  • If faction, Category:(factionvalue) Items
  • Switch on quality parameter value,
    • Legendary = Category:Legendary Items
    • Incomparable = Category:Incomparable Items
    • Rare = Category:Rare Items
    • Uncommon = Category:Uncommon Items
    • Common = Category:Common Items (or should...seems to have 2 defaults so might be some unneeded coding here...
    • (default/any other value) = Category:(qualityvalue) Items

Ok almost done. I think I changed over all the -quality to -grade throughout most of the wiki. Please see my notes User:Matthew.zellmer#-quality_to_-grade_FIX. There are several things still NOT done but I cant do them myself.
I can delete those unupdated deed pages once all the places that currently link to it are changed to the new category:__ link. The Template:Deeds-infobox is probably worth retaining and putting on the category pages as well (once links are all changed). (I did change the Trollshaw link there) I checked The Trollshaws Deeds first at Special:WhatLinksHere, and there are still quite the amount of links that will need changed first before deleting Was looking at the wrong section *facepalm* Let me try this again, lol --Savi (talk) 17:04, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
Deleted the riddermark metal shaving dup pages you listed, the 3 'dups' you list right above that (bulk quality, grade) that you changed to a redirect...when you say it needs to be removed do you mean the redirect? --Savi (talk) 17:19, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
They probably should be removed at some point but not yet. Not until we are sure everything has been changed over properly. I mean, the odd behavior of the Item:High-quality Riddermark Ingot and the Item:High-quality Calenard Ingot needs to be addressed first... HEY wait a second. They are gone. All the lvl 75 and lvl 85 items no longer show up under Special:WhatLinksHere did you do something to a template and fix that? Matthew.zellmer (talk) 17:39, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
Well once you have a list of things to delete or specific template changes you want let me know. And nope, wasn't me...I've not edited the recipe template...and viewing history it looks like no one has recently so must have been fixed for some other reason? *shrug* --Savi (talk) 18:09, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
Indent's getting too deep:)
One other issue that happens with things related to the Disambig and other similar "name changes" -- cache updates!!!
Example: Frequently, when you change a page, and look at the "what links here" ON THE OLD PAGE, you will find that pages are "still" referencing the old page after you have changed them to point to the new page. This happens when those pages are NOT direct references, but rather are "transcluded" references. I.e. the page they transclude is the page that contains the actual reference. You have changed the actual reference, but the transclusion is cached and still contains the old reference!
The Fix is simple -- a blank edit will force the related cache to update. One way to do this immediately is to simply edit the page with the transclusion and then save it. No changes need to be made. This action forces the cache to update.
Otherwise, those caches will ?timeout?get remade? (I don't know which) over time. What I "sort-of-know" is that there are a bunch of MediaWiki housekeeping jobs that run in the general time frame of midnight which do lots of stuff like this. I've never looked at the MediaWiki documentation itself to know what those housekeeping functions are. However, I have frequently banged my head agains some "weird" happening, given up, and then come back the next day to discover the problem is gone.
Undoubtedly LOTROADMIN could explain this better than I. He controls those jobs and reads their logs, and has RTFM :)
I don't doubt that there is a way to "bot-fix" such problems, I simply don't know enough.
Keep in mind that one thing which is true (again I don't know the gory details) -- when you modify certain Templates, (I don't know if "ALL" or "CERTAIN" is the correct adjective here), jobs are kicked off which update something -- Are those jobs updating the caches associated with pages which use those templates? Again, I don't know. I just know that "something happens."
Sethladan is another one who knows a lot more than I do about such things. But he just started another semester and has not been active for the past week or so.
You can try to append ?action=purge to any URL to force to reload the cache, but currently I need to update a setting to allow it to update the links like "what links here". (but still might not force outstanding jobs to run) As for the MW Jobs, they are still under pageview control and I haven't noticed any weekly backlog of jobs since i greatly increased the number of pageviews required to spawn a job. The 'blank edit' is a good way to force the update on a page, but clearly not something that works for templates. Please do not bot the 'blank edits' or ?action=purge as the jobs have a direct impact to the compute resource, they will run and it might even take overnight depending on how many jobs are in the queue. You can drop me a message if you want me to rush the jobs, but that hinges if I'm available and how busy the lotroo-wiki is. --Lotroadmin (talk) 21:02, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
Magill asked me to pop in, but looks like Lotroadmin has addressed the issue with lingering what-links-here with more certainty than I could. Having only skimmed through the preceding discussion, the only thing I can add off-hand is a reminder that Template:Delete Page is available if someone needs an admin to attend to a page. You can leave it up to the deleting admin (sounds like that's been Savi and Magill) to force the blank edits as necessary when they're double-checking any leftover links. Any template assistance from me will have to wait until May, sadly, unless you're willing to hire me as an intern (Jim? ;) ).
Re: | disambigpage discussion below, it is always a reference to the "home" page of an item, skill, effect, etc - anything that uses pop-up tooltips. The fact that an incorrect disambigpage entry ends up in boxes switching sides is purely by accident (I think), but as Magill points out, it's a very convenient accident. I can't unpack all the "gory details" from my brain at the moment, but it prevents (much like our | nocat parameter) some runaway categorization and allows us to avoid some tooltip silliness (for example, without the use of disambigpage, you'd get a tooltip pop-up if you visited Item:Minstrel's Friend and hovered over the name of the item in the box. Pointless, since you're already looking right at the item's info. I think it has a more extensive role in Template:Item Tooltip, especially for set items, but the details are somewhat foggy at the moment. Sethladan 02:43, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
WOW! I had no idea what the impacts of changing a template would have. I got squirrely the other day and decided I knew enough to change 2 of them (see User:Matthew.zellmer#-quality_to_-grade_FIX) just changing the name of a metal ingot. Clearly I still have a steep learning curve. I wont ever do that again. Sounds like a huge deal on the backend. Thanks for the explanations. I think I will collect these insights and put them somewhere. This is good stuff.
So I am going to assume the odd behavior I noticed before was from cached transclusion links and waiting a day was enough to clear up the caches.
Matthew.zellmer (talk) 13:57, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
Don't confuse changing the "pattern" of values for a template found on, say, an Item page, with the actual template itself found in Category: Templates. Changing quality to grade does (should) not involve the Template, only the article page.
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 15:10, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Indents are getting to deep again LOL

Right! So Template:Legendary_Recipe and Template:Legendary Index are used to build hundreds of items and they were (belive it or not ) hard coded with the Item:High-quality Calenard Ingot so I changed it to Item:High-grade Calenard Ingot. While I was there I also converted Item:High-quality Riddermark Ingot to Item:High-grade Riddermark Ingot. I thought these were the Templates themselves but maybe there is something even deeper that I have not seen yet. Matthew.zellmer (talk) 15:57, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
I am going to close this section as far as I can tell all the changes were corrected and look good. COMPLETE pending comments
Savi ! I just figured out your earlier comment about delete templates! I thought you were saying there was a trick I could use in a template to delete pages but that's not it at all. You were saying there is a template that acts like a stub and makes the page for deletion! EXCELLENT! I am using the template as of today! Thanks again.

Matthew.zellmer (talk) 16:50, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Rules about page naming

I suppose this is another one of those things that needs to be part of the Great Documentation Project.

The main issue here has nothing to do directly with the templates. Other than the fact that most Templates do NOT "auto-categorize" if there is a error on the page. Sadly, there are no error messages. As with Unix (and C programming) you just have to "know" that you did something wrong. (I hate Kernighan and Pike for making that acceptable behavior.)

  • The root problem is easily recognized on "most" pages -- it simply does not display correctly.

There are three different "names" associated with each page.

  1. The page name by which the WIKI stores the page in its database -- this is "not editable" and appears at the top of the page.
    To change this name, you must either "Move" the page or "delete" the old page and re-create it with the new name.
  2. The "| name =" parameter in most Templates. This is simply the "display" name, used on, typically, the Tooltip created.
  3. The "| disambigpage=" parameter in most Templates. This is the key parameter. (I wish I knew what it really does/how/why it works).
  4. This is normally created by the template using "subst: PAGENAME" or "SUBPAGNAME"
Minimally, when the disambigpage parameter does not equal the actual page name "it doesn't work".

(I have to try to codify all this...) User:Magill/Project-Documentation common parameters

Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 18:17, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
Thanks! This is good stuff, I will keep it in mind. I hope it finds its way into some documentation Boilerplate:Item and its ilk. I figured the disambigpage property was used as a second name that other pages could reference or as a name to display locally when the linked name was broke. Sounds like the template is exhibiting strange behavior to me. Matthew.zellmer (talk) 14:28, 26 February 2014 (UTC)