Notes from Talk:Mines of Moria Deeds
Does anyone know what the opening sentence on this page means?
- "Every Instance in the Mines of Moria has its own set of deeds, including one hidden deed (finishing all deeds within an instance will complete this hidden deed)."
- A) I believe that this page is describing -- not Mines of Moria Deeds, but a separate category by itself relating to Moria Instances.
- B) What is listed on the page, I think, are ONLY the Instances found in Moria.
- C) Those deeds found on the Deed log under the tab "Moria" should be listed here (or somewhere).
- D) It does not list any of the Hidden Deeds implied by the sentence.
- E) I believe the first
What I am saying is: There is not (that I can find) anything which ties together the deeds in Moria (pr Moria in general, for that matter). Moria of itself is confusing (except perhaps to a Dwarf who have, according to D&D an "innate sense of depth"), and by listing most everything alphabetically, it implies an understanding of the geography and overall layout of Moria. There is nothing which relates one's normal progression through Moria. I realize that progression can fork at Dolven-View, but there is no obvious indication that you are moving vertically as you are moving horizontally through Moria.
I suspect that this comment does not belong here, but it is triggered by my attempt to update things for Update 7, and discovering LOTS about Moria on the Wiki that is confusing. And this is where I encountered much confusion.
- Refer also to my update page: User:Magill/Projects-Update 07-Moria Revamp
The Moria deeds need to be reorganized somehow ... there are 4 deed tabs in the Deed log, with 3 of the 4 being "correct" (logical?).
- Moria -- Moria Deeds
- Moria Lower Deeps -- Moria Lower Deeps Deeds
- Moria Central Halls -- Moria Central Halls Deeds
- Moria Upper Levels -- Moria Upper Levels Deeds
In the Category:Moria Deeds, The categories:
- Category:Moria Explorer Deeds
- Category:Moria Slayer Deeds
- Category:Moria Lore Deeds
- Category:Moria Reputation Deeds
All Integrate with the upper categories
But this page Mines of Moria Deeds doesn't tie in with the others. And If either don't know it is here, or stumble on it first, you don't link to the others.
I'm trying to incorporate some sort of logical links to all of this as I go along. I don't believe there is an "easy fix," but am more than open to suggestions or alternatives. (Not to mention corrections.) I'm also trying to fill in much missing information as I go along. Deeds seem to be one of the "more missing" attributes on location pages.
One thing which I don't know of, but hopefully one exists someplace -- a Vertical Map of Moria. I would love to have this: The ancient salt mines of Wieliczka redone for Moria -- which references it being "about as close as you can get to being in the mines of Moria from the Lord of the Rings." I sent the author an email on the long-shot chance he could be induced to generate such a map for Moria.
One thing which I have only recently discovered, but don't really know if it is true -- It appears that the main Moria Map, despite the compass implying otherwise, is in-fact an Up-down map. Where the compass should really be labeled Up and Down West and East. (I.e. North and South are really Up and Down.)If I am correct, then one help would be for us to so indicate that fact.
- Agreed, deeds are a section that's not always consistently documented on the wiki, and Moria as a region has some bizarre complexities of its own. I salute you for working on bringing them up to date.
- The deeds on this page are completely separate from all the other Moria deeds. You can find them in the deed log under Instances, then the second tab which is Mines of Moria. It's a collection of all the instance deeds from the Moria instances. The hidden deed it refers to is Saviour of Khazad-dum, which is linked in the meta-deed section of the page.
- The deed pages that exist for Moria should be following the in-game categories of the deed log. I think they started that way, at any rate. -- Elinnea (talk) 17:52, 21 May 2012 (EDT)
- Though this topic is discussed a few different places, figured I'd leave a comment here...I've been adding a simple overview table for deeds on their category pages. Just added one for the moria tabs (Category:Moria Deeds) If this conflicts or whatever with how you are reorganizing things feel free to remove or edit it as desired. (Instances are not included as those will come later under the instance deed-log tab)--Savi (talk) 19:58, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
Notes from User:Magill/Projects-Update 07-Moria Revamp 20 May 2014
- Some quick comments about my old projects page.
- Basically, Update 7 (May 2012 Update 7: Shades of the Past - May 14, 2012) wast the first of Turbine's two revisions to Moria. (The second update was Update 9 - Update 9, Against the Shadow - December 17, 2012.
- These two revisions became the pattern for subsequent updates to areas like the most recent Trollshaws, Misty Mountains, etc.
- There were some quite radical changes in things like quest flow, creation of new quest hubs, old quests re-named as well as moved, Tasks added, etc. -- all in addition to the various "tweaks" to Creature stats and the like.
- The project page was written during the beta period and then (hopefully) others would use it to update and create the "new Moria."
- Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 14:19, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
- Moving forward with the Deeds issues...
- clearly, with Update 13.1, Deeds changed again, significantly.
- I don't know specifically what changes apply to Moria Deeds, but in general, there are now Meta Deeds (which did not previously exist) for groups of Deeds which did exist, and many rewards have changed as well.
- In many cases the "mechanic" for these Meta Deeds is that they do NOT show in the Deed Log until AFTER one of the subordinate deeds is completed. Which makes them somewhat difficult to detect.
- Does that qualify Meta Deeds as "Hidden Deeds?"
- There are differences in what a "new player" sees compared to an "old player," which makes it somewhat difficult for us "old timers" to verify "updated" information so as to present it in a way that makes sense for "new players." I.e. players before and after Update 7. You see Moria differently if you are going through it for the first time (even with a new toon) compared to how it was "before."
- Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 14:37, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
Differentiating Hidden Deeds from Meta Deeds
Magill asked, above: Does that qualify Meta Deeds as "Hidden Deeds?"
No. My specific issue with the categorization process of category:Hidden Deed and category:Meta Deed is these terms are being used synonymously with each other. When, as far as I can see, they are not matches. The difference between these two deeds is dependent on when a player is notified they're in the act of performing a deed.
Meta Deeds will notify the player immediately on completion of the first of any objective(s) that the deed exists. It will cause an entry to be placed in the Deed Log, including the display of a list of objectives that will be updated as those objectives are fulfilled.
Hidden Deeds on the other hand, will only update the Deed Log on completion of the entire deed, never displaying a listing of objective(s) or any intermediary updates to the Deed Log. Thus, from viewing the Deed Log, there is either: no deed whatsoever, or a deed completed in full. No other intermediary status can ever exist for a Hidden Deed; if an intermediary state exists, it is some other type of deed.
Note that this defining characteristic has no bearing on whether the character is newly created or previously existing. No one is made aware of the existence of a Hidden Deed until it's completed.
Consider The Pits of Moria which is a Hidden Deed. Falling into the deepest areas of certain regions causes a notice (You've fallen into a deep pit in <region name>) to be displayed for the player, but otherwise there is no notification. Nor is there any entry at all in the Deed Log - no new deed, no update to the status of that deed. It's not until you have fallen into pits in all of these regions (ie, completing all deed objectives), that the player is ever notified of the deeds existence. Nothing is ever shown regarding this deed in the Deed Log at any time while pursuing completion of the deed (ie, >0% but <100% complete). My Hunter (created U3, entered Moria approx U11) just completed the last two objectives last week, without prior notice from the game of the deed's existence (including pre-U13). My burglar (created U3, entered Moria post-U13) accidentally started the deed immediately after my Hunter - but also was never notified of the deed.
So the deciding factor on whether or not a deed is Hidden, is whether or not it is shown in the Deed Log after being started but before completion. Perhaps there is some case I'm not considering here, but I believe the above is accurate. Comments or questions? -- Squirmier (talk) 11:36, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
- I concur that the above reads as accurate. The only thing I would add is that there are some meta deeds that are also hidden. Would have to do some manual checking, but I believe most of the new meta deeds (such as Slayer of Ered Luin) are this way. But indeed, meta deeds and hidden deeds are not the same, but may have some overlap. --Savi (talk) 13:27, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for the clarification and write-up. This needs to get embedded into the Deeds "how to" -- probably on the Project page Lotro-Wiki.com:Deeds or maybe the Boilerplate?
- These "definitions" tend to get lost from one "Editing Generation" to the next -- oral tradition and all that... :)
- Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 04:13, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
- Savi: While there might be Hidden Meta deeds, the Meta Slayer's are not an example of them. I took a brand new mule and tested this on Slugs in the Shire. The instant I completed Slug-slayer Advanced, I also got Slayer of the Shire with Kill Many Slugs being the only objective marked completed - making this a partially updated Deed Log. Partial updates to Deed Log = not Hidden. I think the time delay involved in completing a single objective of a Meta Deed is causing confusion; for the Meta Slayers it's the time required to kill 90 (starter areas) to upwards of 450 (Angmar+) creatures for both tiers that makes it seem that LotRO is actively hiding these deeds.
- Magill: I have no problem with embedding it in whole or in part in either location. I'm just not sure where it should be placed for greatest assistance. -- Squirmier (talk) 11:58, 26 May 2014 (UTC)