Lotro-Wiki.com talk:Categorization

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Problem: Pluralization of category names.

We want templates to help with categorization. Great!

Creature: Orc-Archer
Genus: Orc-kind
Species: Orc ... ooops... Orcs

Do you see the problem?

Do you want to explain to a user that the Type isn't "orc" for a single entry but "Orcs" so that the category is "Category:Orcs" versus "Category:Orc"? I don't.

When creating a single entry, the type specified will be "Orc" -- singular yet I find categories in the creatures area are plural -- Orcs, Goblins, Ents, Trolls, etc... I've started automation steps in at least a couple templates but not all things pluralize with the simple addition of an "s" to the word so we cannot easily automate this.

  • What's the plural of Uruk-Hai? Uruk-Hai *IS* plural.
  • How about Uruk?
  • What about the plural of Dwarf?
  • What about the plural of Elf?
  • What's the plural of Man?
  • What's the plural of Knife?
  • What's the plural of Foot?

Now... what's the solution we want to implement?

I can make a template like [[Template:Genus]] that will map across the types to plurals but that is a hell of a lot of work and maintenance to keep up with... --Eleazaros 22:46, 4 March 2008 (PST)

Usage of Tolkien languages will complicate things even further, eg: Craban is singular, plural is not Crabans but Crebain ;) --Xander 02:26, 6 March 2008 (PST)
Is categorizing of uncategorised pages also a task of this project? --Xander 03:48, 6 March 2008 (PST)
Yes, I would say so. --Fedaykin 06:11, 6 March 2008 (PST)
Hm, Special:Uncategorizedpages does not seem to track other namespaces than main =/ eg: Item:Gloves_of_the_North_Star does not have any categories and does not show up on Special:Uncategorizedpages at all... anyone know of other ways to track uncategorised pages? --Xander 06:50, 6 March 2008 (PST)
I'd say we'd need to look at the php file that controls that. It executes a SQL query is all and it could/should be expandable to the other namespaces if we want it to be.
--Eleazaros 08:30, 7 March 2008 (PST)

These issues are "common" in the Scientific and Language communities. Orc vs Orcs is a classic issue from Biological categorization. Similarly, your list of questions left out:

  • trousers" -- singular at the top and plural at the bottom. :)

But your questions are those which, especially, confront "non-native" American speakers (note that I am not calling the Language "English" here.)

As for explaining "Orcs" vs Orc" -- it's one of those things that one needs to be willing to do. It's not a fighting topic, but rather one of "standardization" or "generally accepted terminology." And it is a "thing" which Editors routinely do to their writers. Which is why, I shudder to say the phrase, "manuals of style" exist. Note that we do have this exact same issue with the funky spellings used by Tolkien -- both simple "English vs American" spellings -- Defence vs Defense (My spell checker complains about the "c" -- does yours?) and all of those funny Accent Graves and Circumflexes that nobody in America uses, but the entire rest of the world does! Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC (talk) 16:45, 19 June 2011 (EDT)

Merging Pages

Anyone involved in this project (I guess that includes me, actually, heh) who has a minute, please take a look at Help: Categorization, compare to Categorization Guideline and expand the latter if needed. Help: Categorization seems to reflect mostly one person's view, so it probably should be integrated as useful and then deleted; I don't think we're hosting editorials here. :) Sethladan 15:18, 20 February 2011 (EST)*

proposed merged/new page for Categorization

Ok... I've come up with a "proposed" merger page -- for the two "Guidelines" pages which were "tagged" as merger candidates.

For the proposed page see: User_talk:Magill/Sandbox-5

For a bunch of comments I started see the associated "Discussion" page.

Merge/re-write currently in progress Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC (talk) 20:47, 11 August 2012 (EDT)

"Uncategorized" templates, etc

In working the Ettenmoors "stuff" I have discovered a number of, apparently from their dates, "Original" templates ... typically something similar to an existing one, but tagged "MP" == example "{{Infobox MP-NPC"

Also, these "early" templates use the "{{PAGENAME}}" nomenclature, which is missing from "later" templates.

I guess my main question here is ... how do I find these "undefined" templates (or boilerplates as the case may be).

I've been using them, simply because I always find it easier to "copy and modify" than to "create" ... especially when I don't really know what I should be doing.

Similarly, I've been sticking assorted "category tags" on pages because I find many pages which should be in some category but are not there.

Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC (talk) 16:30, 19 June 2011 (EDT)

Some of the templates in use have been around largely unchanged for a long time. If could be that its not needed to change, but if also could be that no one's been doing any real stuff in that area for a while. When you say undefined templates, what sort of things do you mean?
I think one of the main reason's {{PAGENAME}} is avoided in newer templates is that it can cause lots of unexpected problems, especially when pages are transcluded onto other pages (using the {{whatever}} or {{:whatever}} method I mentioned below). Some of the older templates may not be on other pages so this hasn't been an issue, or may just not have been changed.
If you feel that there's a need to completely overhaul some of the templates, then that's something that could be looked at. If you're not sure how to do that yourself, then I can help show you/do it if you want. Amphoras (talk) 08:44, 20 June 2011 (EDT)

Where do "boxes of categories" come from?

Another "puzzle" for me -- there is a "box" -- Ettenmoors "stuff" which appears on many pages... It has a list of "Settlements, Areas and Landmarks" in it. (See the bottom of Ost Ringdyr for an example.)

While I can (and have) easily moved it around, or can eliminate it... I cannot figure out how/where it is created. And consequently, what I need to do to "fix" the entries in it.

A good example of the problem is "Troll-height" and "The Delving of Frór"-- both show in that list as "Areas", when in fact they are "Landmarks," or more accurately, a "Locations"

How does that "box" get created and therefore modified Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC (talk) 16:31, 19 June 2011 (EDT)

The "box" is a template. Putting {{whatever}} on a page says that you want to include the content of Template:whatever on that page. You can also use {{:whatever}} which will put the content of [[whatever]] on that page. This can be useful when the page you want to include is a page in its own right, so shouldn't be put in a template. An example is on Champion Legendary Legacies. Each individual legacy has its own page, but they are also included on the main page using this method. In the case of {{Ettenmoors}}, the "box" is generated at Template:Ettenmoors. If you edit that page, it will change what shows on all the pages that use that template. There's other stuff you can do with templates as well, but that should give you a rough idea of what's happening. If you want to know more, just ask. Amphoras (talk) 08:29, 20 June 2011 (EDT)