Category talk:Vol. III. Book 4 Quests

I started moving quests back to "Chapter ##: Title" isntead of "Book #, Chapter ##: Title," but realized I should probably talk about it instead of starting editing conflicts. I know there were discussions about the way we name quests on Talk:Lotro-Wiki_Contributors'_Corner, but I don't remember any kind of sure consensus being reached about changing the page name standards and all that.

Barring that, all our other quests are named by chapter regardless of what's in the game, right? Sethladan 17:12, 29 September 2011 (EDT)

Every where else we seem to be a bit pedantic about naming things the same as they are in the games, spelling errors, grammar errors and other warts included. It seems to me that most of the epic quests named without the book are the original suite of book 1 quests. It seems to me that a simple global rule, like "name it like the game" is easier to work with than different rules for quests, items, creatures and NPCs. I know I have said we can name pages anything we like, but with my database background, I am thinking about non-intellegent surrogate keys rather than pseudo natural keys. RingTailCat (talk) 17:33, 29 September 2011 (EDT)

And with my psychological background, I'm thinking about what makes most sense to people, heh. Sethladan 17:37, 29 September 2011 (EDT)

A big part of my interest in the quest page naming is that I tend to create pages in random order when there are a lot of pages to create. If I create pages for a quest reward item Tin Bracelet of the Strong Arm and for the quest that award it: Allies and Enemies, I would like to be able to predict the page names so anyone can create them, in any order, possibly days apart, and have the links between them end up correct. In this case, the names come directly from the item tooltip and the quest log. With the Vol III, Book 4 quests, the initial work with them was done during the beta program, and, as you can see, the chapter 2 quest through the Bonevales got renamed from "...: Bone-vales" to "...: The Valley of Bone". It looks like the area might have been renamed as well (Bone-vales to Bonevales). So, I assumed that the initial names could be faulty, and tried to (re-)apply the simple rule that I name pages exactly like the game entity, unless there is a collision that requires some disambiguation. I'm a big fan of the Principle of least astonishment. I firmly believe that epic quest and non-epic quest pages should follow the same naming conventions, so they are derived from the in-game names in exactly the same way. RingTailCat (talk) 19:02, 29 September 2011 (EDT)

I hear you that having a single, unambiguous reference (the game) definitely makes it a lot easier to know what a page "should" be named if we're using that as the standard. It's hard for me to justify "consistency" as an argument for doing so, though: Following the game leads the quest names to be inconsistent with each other, while coming up with our own standard will inevitably lead to deviation from the game. I'll leave it up to you here although, for my part, I find Turbine's naming scheme to be not the least astonishing.
For reference:
Volume I: Most (all?) quests named by book and chapter
Volume II: Most quests named by chapter, except "Chapter 1"s which include book
Volume III, Books 1-3: Quests named by chapter
Volume III, Book 4: Quests named by book and chapter (that I've seen so far) Sethladan 21:55, 29 September 2011 (EDT)

Group but no Chain?

I notice that quests below Chapter 7 do not have a quest-chain info-box, but they are listed as if they are chained at this page. Either they have a prerequisite, and should have an info-box (perhaps just referring to Chapter 7), or they should not be on this list to begin with, at least not the part that transcludes as a chain with prerequisites. Which one is more correct than the other? -- Zimoon 02:02, 29 May 2012 (EDT)

It made a lot of sense to do it that way when we wrote up those quests. I was doing write-up while I did the quests, and I think Magill was as well.

In the quest log for chapter 7, the folder AND the quest chain text contain the same thing (Vol. III. Book 4). For those 10 quests, the folder is "Vol. III. Book 4" but the quest chain field is empty. The objective for chapter 7 is to do 10 quests. You can't move on to Chapter 8 until they are done.

I think you will also find that it makes sense when you do those quests yourself.

RingTailCat (talk) 02:40, 29 May 2012 (EDT)

OK, then it makes sense to use the second alternative for quest-chains, right? To not use the questchain parameter of the template but using a box which transcludes from the category. Or not?

I assume these quests has "accepted chapter 7" as prerequisite, am I right?

The problem right now is that of these quests nothing indicates they are blockers for Ch 7, nor if they depend on that chapter. I am not questioning that it makes sense or that they are not in the proper group, I am looking for useful information for the visitors. And I am happy to help adding whatever usefulness we agree on :)

-- Zimoon 07:12, 29 May 2012 (EDT)

Later in this epic book, there are several similar quest patterns. The epic quest depends on the completion of several other quests which do not have the quest chain field set. This is representative of some of the changes that occur in the more recent expansions. More significant is that at certain key points in both the epic and non-epic quest sequences, the landscape changes. If fact, the entire Tâl Methedras region, including landscape features, NPCs, and mobs, changes at some point in this epic book. This is something which does not happen to the same extent (if at all) with earlier expansions and upgrades. (In Enedwaith, only NPCs visibility was dependent on quest completions.) It makes the questing experience very character-centric. When you come into the area again with another character, it is back the way it was originally. It might not matter to memory challenged players. I found it to be confusing when I switched back and forth between several characters at different levels in the same region. (I had two, and I helped my wife take two of hers through the area at the same time.) You really need to experience it for yourself to understand how it effects the questing experience.

I notice that no one has yet written up the Race of Man racial quest that comes up between chapters 7 and 8. I know the racial quest is not available until you accept chapter 7, but I am not sure if it must be accepted before you complete chapter 7.

This group of 14 quests, of which you must do 10 and may do 11 could benefit from some note to show their relationship with each other and the parent quest. I don't believe it would be useful to remove them from the list on this page, however.

RingTailCat (talk) 07:47, 29 May 2012 (EDT)

Thanks, good info. Yes, I have gathered that NPCs become "mobile" with the later content-updates. No problem really, just some extra info per each page and keeping straight when typing the location pages.

I believe the info at this page should stand as is, and I go and add a quest-chain info-box at the quests so they kind of relate to something. Right now they hang lose but if they both depend on Ch 7 and must be done for its completion they indeed belong to the informative part we provide. Thanks again, all question marks now straightened into exclamation marks! -- Zimoon 09:04, 29 May 2012 (EDT)

At a second look we can use the questchain parameter of the template in this particular case, if group equals chain only group is displayed. Which is not entirely correct, one could argue, but on the other hand I remember Seth and EoD decided that it is just confusing with identical entries twice. Thus, using the parameter is incorrect but works. If you think it is better to add an info-box that transcludes, go ahead and switch to that ;)

-- Zimoon 09:29, 29 May 2012 (EDT)

City of Traitors sub-quests

Would it make sense to move The Seeping Poison and Trap-breaking under Never Reported Back? You can't get either of the former without doing the latter, if I understand correctly. HTH HAND —NotACat (talk) 10:28, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

I checked just now and Herestan and Déormund offers their quests: The Seeping Poison and Trap-breaking even if you haven't done Never Reported Back :) --Taivas (talk) 20:27, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

OK, so that assumes you just stumble across them without knowing you were supposed to be looking for them? That makes sense, thanks. —NotACat (talk) 09:46, 13 May 2016 (UTC)