View source for User talk:EoD


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:Promoted to [[Lotro-Wiki.com:Ninjas|Ninja]] Status! --[[User:Lotroadmin|Lotroadmin]] 00:52, 17 March 2011 (EDT)
::::Promoted to a Bureaucrats!   Guru of the Tooltips  --[[User:Lotroadmin|Lotroadmin]] ([[User talk:Lotroadmin|talk]]) 03:16, 26 April 2012 (EDT)

== <nowiki><noinclude></nowiki> ==
Hi there, and a belated welcome to the Wiki! I saw the changes you made to [[The Shire]] and noticed that Tiberivs reversed some of them before I got a chance to explain the <nowiki><noinclude></nowiki> business. I remember when I started editing here a few months ago and one of my first changes got deleted almost right away, so I did want to say "Thanks!" for doing your best to pitch in - all your other contributions so far are great.<br>With <nowiki><noinclude></nowiki>, we use that on some pages because articles like [[Eriador]] copy ("transclude") information from other pages. <nowiki><noinclude>, <onlyinclude>, and <includeonly></nowiki> are tags in the wiki software that let us control what information gets copied. In the case of [[The Shire]], most of the article is between <nowiki><noinclude> and </noinclude></nowiki> tags, meaning that all of that information won't get copied into [[Eriador]], just the introductory paragraph.<br>Forgive me if you knew all this already - it's the lecturer part of me that wants to make sure everyone knows what's going on behind the scenes. :) Always feel free to ask if something doesn't look right, and I promise we'll eventually have some more thorough editing guides here to explain this sort of thing better. Keep up the good work! [[User:Sethladan|Sethladan]] 17:43, 14 February 2011 (EST)
:I'm quite familiar with wikis, but thanks for the explanation :). I was looking for a page which included ("transcluded")  [[The Shire]] but I didn't find anything, so I thought those code is a remnant of an older revision. I'll try to be more careful next time!<br />Btw, you might have a look at the headline. Thanks for welcoming me :) --[[User:EoD|EoD]] 06:43, 15 February 2011 (EST)
::Hahah, you showed me. ;) Again, sorry for "talking down" to you. You're right that there's a lot of "leftover" stuff floating around; glad to have a wiki veteran around to help us clean up! [[User:Sethladan|Sethladan]] 14:00, 15 February 2011 (EST)
:::lol - I didn't had the feeling to be talked down. I'm always glad to help! --[[User:EoD|EoD]] 18:03, 18 February 2011 (EST)

== Deeds Lore ==
Hey,<br />I saw lore-text changes from you on some deed pages and I wanted to ask what the lore text is. Is it that kind of text which appears when I hover the mouse over the completed deed icon? Because it seems to be a totally different text on my completed deeds pages. Where do you get the lore text from? Is there a field where the text from the completed deed icon (the colorful one) should be put in? I'd like to update some of the deeds here. --[[User:EoD|EoD]] 10:44, 9 March 2011 (EST)
:Hi, well the lore-text is the text that appears if you hover over the icon of the specific deed (not on the right where there's also the objective, but at the left of the pannel (this text is also vissible if you do not yet have your deed completed). Please give me some examples of deeds you think are wrong... so we could double-check :-) --[[User:Tiberivs|Tiberivs]] 16:35, 9 March 2011 (EST)
::I just changed [https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php?title=Enmity_of_the_Orcs&action=historysubmit&diff=226217&oldid=225196 Enmity of the Orcs] as an example of a wrong lore text. I found some others yesterday too. I'm going to check those in the next few days. --[[User:EoD|EoD]] 22:11, 10 March 2011 (EST)
:::Great job, I myself have not yet checked the Racial deeds... nice to see someone else looking in to it :) --[[User:Tiberivs|Tiberivs]] 06:36, 12 March 2011 (EST)

== f2p ==
''This deed is f2p (and gives reputation) --[[User:EoD|EoD]] 23:36, 13 March 2011 (EDT)''
:I think a lot of the discovery-type deeds are now available for f2p players. -- [[User:Starbursty|Starbursty]] 16:15, 14 March 2011 (EDT)

== Sandbox ==
I got a {{Item:Map to Ost Guruth|mode=link}}today! Works with no space after the }}. This tooltip business is fascinating! Now if only I had the attention span to get the AJAX pop-up to work on more browsers (I currently see the error everywhere, ugh). [[User:Sethladan|Sethladan]] 00:15, 18 March 2011 (EDT)
:I had this bug pretty often, but I didn't find the bug on first sight in the template. I might have a look at it another time.
:How are you doing this class=itemlink popup business? This is one part of a wiki I never did before and I'd really like to know how/where you are doing this kind of stuff (it seems like it's outside of the ''MediaWiki:'' namespace, which was my first guess). --[[User:EoD|EoD]] 00:36, 18 March 2011 (EDT)
::Take a look at [[Template talk:Item Tooltip#Pop-ups]] - it's a pretty common issue. For some reason I thought you were around for that discussion, but I must be confusing you with Eadangar. Whoops. :-P The bug is probably in the JavaScript files which are actually hidden in [[User:Eleazaros]]'s directory - he originally imported the tooltip feature from WoWWiki before my time here and has since departed. I've taken a few stabs at figuring out how it works, but haven't actually changed anything yet. Class=itemlink (I had to go search for this) is defined in [[Mediawiki:Common.css]] (you were right!) about 3/4 of the way down.<br />Are you at all familiar with cascading style sheets and JavaScript? It will be a big project to sort through all those definitions and (possibly?) clean out ones that aren't used, especially since there's no "What Links Here" feature for CSS classes.<br />It's so overwhelming how much functionality exists in those files that no one (except maybe Lotroadmin and some of the other founding folk) really knows how to use at this point... [[User:Sethladan|Sethladan]] 01:44, 18 March 2011 (EDT)
:::P.S. Do you IRC? You seem to have a really good handle on template work, so it would be great to exchange/coordinate ideas on a more regular basis. :) Trying to get editors to use the chat more frequently - I think Ravanel, Fingolwë, and I are the only ones who do so far. [[User:Sethladan|Sethladan]] 01:46, 18 March 2011 (EDT)
::::*I was in the IRC today, but there was only Yrol talking to me. I'll try to be online around 22:00 UTC during next week, as I guess we are living in totally different timezones.
::::*About the [[Mediawiki:Common.css|Common.css]]: I had a look at this page before, but there seems nothing related to the real popup, only stuff about design (colors/alignments/fonts). Am I blind or did you mean the design definitions? My css/js knowledge restricts to basic stuff, but I guess I'll be able to read the code. I'll have a look at the [https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php?title=Special%3APrefixIndex&prefix=Eleazaros&namespace=2 hidden] pages from Eleazaros now and see if I can figure something out.
:::::The main parts of Eleazaros stuff is in [[User:Eleazaros/core.js|core.js]] and [[User:Eleazaros/itemtooltip.js|itemtooltip.js]]. There is probably the bug.
::::*I found out, that the original template comes from [https://www.wowpedia.org/User:Pcj User:Pcj] and he still seems to be quite active. It might be more reasonable to look at this version of tooltis as this has probably evolved in the last 2 years :). Especially interesting seems to be his [https://www.wowpedia.org/MediaWiki:Common.js Common.js].
::::--[[User:EoD|EoD]] 11:17, 18 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::I found the bug :D . And this also explains the reason why the template does/doesn't work on same configurations of browsers/OS for different people. I'm just waiting to get access to [[User:Eleazaros/core.js]] to try my fix.<br />I give you a hint: [https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/User:EoD/Sandbox At the bottom] :p<br />--[[User:EoD|EoD]] 12:24, 18 March 2011 (EDT)
::::::Ah-hah. The same problem we have with apostrophes in item names when it comes to disambig pages. Hooray for <nowiki>{{subst}}</nowiki>! [[User:Sethladan|Sethladan]] 15:10, 18 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::::You should have access to edit the javascript now.  I do agree with Sethladan that these should be moved to the MediaWiki namespace to [[MediaWiki:Common.js]].  Minimizing the number of javascript files is also a good thing for the user's page load times. --[[User:Lotroadmin|Lotroadmin]] 21:06, 18 March 2011 (EDT)
::::::::Thanks for the promotion! I just applied [https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php?title=User:Eleazaros/core.js&diff=prev&oldid=229059 the fix] and it seems to work :) --[[User:EoD|EoD]] 22:09, 18 March 2011 (EDT)

I just fixed this "I got a {{Item:Map to Ost Guruth|mode=link}} today!" bug. But there is still the one which does a linebreak at the beginning (in listings, like the ::: here). I guess it's related to the ul/li tags. --[[User:EoD|EoD]] 00:43, 19 March 2011 (EDT)

== tooltips and MW17 ==
EoD I've upgraded the wiki to 1.17, so if you can migrate over the required changes that will be cool.   I've noticed an annoying issue with the current tooltip include at [[MediaWiki:Common.js]] with it blanking the page (just reload and stop 1/2 way when editing) that I'm not sure why, but assume it's some sort of loop.    Once the tooltip stuff is migrated I will move to the new webhost. --[[User:Lotroadmin|Lotroadmin]] 02:48, 10 April 2011 (EDT)
:*I successfully added the popup the [[Mediawiki:Common.js]].
:*After working [https://leet.lotro-wiki.com/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges&from=20110410915631&days=1 more then 4h] on leet I really appreciate how fast lotro-wiki.com is. Sorry to tell you that, but it's much slower. 
:*The mw-collapse and mw-collapsible classes don't work, although they [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Collapsible_tables should work]. Do you know if you have accidentally disabled them?
:--[[User:EoD|EoD]] 21:57, 10 April 2011 (EDT)
::I haven't done anything more than upgrade to 1.17 which should be identical to leet.   Is it fine for me to migrate tonight or tomorrow?  or at least resync? 
::I've seen some issues with the webhost lately since the last outage so the transition will have to happen soon.  Also with this larger webhost, I should be able to tune certain aspects as well.  The mysql performance should increase along with the caching. 
::I will work with the new webhost to migrate it to a more central location so it will be more comparable to this host.    From the various website speed tests, it all seems to be geographical locations.  Since EU is a significant part of the traffic it seems that the east cost webhosts are better suited than west coast.
::--[[User:Lotroadmin|Lotroadmin]]
:::*Feel free to resync, we've finished all work on leet. As far as I saw it, you already migrated the server, didn't you?
:::*About the speed issue. I get on '''all''' EU servers I have access to (including servers/computers in the [https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-WiN X-Win]) a much higher latency to the new server (from 50 to 150ms slower). And as I told you, while I worked on leet it felt like ages all when I pressed Ctrl+F5. The speed issue we (Seth and me) felt yesterday lead to the new "Loading..." text on popups. We wanted to tell the user to be patient until the popup appears, as the loading time for those is much longer as someone would expect.
:::*There might have been problems during the migration which caused this weird behaviour. Have a look at [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/ResourceLoader/Migration_guide_%28users%29 Migration guide] and especially at the [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/RL/JD#addOnloadHook deprecations]. I'll try to fix some stuff.
::::I started migrating some stuff. Have a look at [https://leet.lotro-wiki.com/index.php?title=MediaWiki%3ACommon.js&action=historysubmit&diff=243184&oldid=243071 Common.js] and [https://leet.lotro-wiki.com/index.php?title=User%3AEleazaros%2Ftooltip.js&action=historysubmit&diff=243182&oldid=243062 tooltip.js] (especially the removal of addOnloadHook).
:::--[[User:EoD|EoD]] 12:35, 11 April 2011 (EDT)
::::Yes I did end up migrating after reboot would be required to fix an issue that also appeared friday night.    I will dive into these pages you linked tonight.  Other than the extensions, this is pretty much default installation as all tweaked css and javascript has been moved to the Common.css/js probably 18+ months ago. 
::::Like i feared, php caching wasn't enabled, so I did enable that over the lunch hour, hopefully that will reduce load times as more pages get cached.   I've also considered increasing the webhost RAM more to allow mysqld more breathing room.  It's amazing how flexible mysql can be, but I would rather see it operate out of RAM vs a pagefile. --[[User:Lotroadmin|Lotroadmin]] 16:06, 11 April 2011 (EDT)

== Calenglad's Shield ==
Why did you move the old [[Item:Calenglad's Shield]] to [[Item:Calenglad's Shield (Warden's Shield)]]? It seems that both are Warden shields... And why did you change the ''name'' variable the latter item from "Calenglad's Shield" to "Calenglad's Shield (Warden's Shield)"? As far as I remember it's not called "Calenglad's Shield (Warden's Shield)". --[[User:EoD|EoD]] 17:21, 2 May 2011 (EDT)
:Fixed. -- [[User:Starbursty|Starbursty]] 07:22, 3 May 2011 (EDT)

== More Tooltip Fun ==
We got a request for using tooltips on other sites, take a [https://forums.lotro-wiki.com/topic.php?id=167 look] if you get a chance. :) [[User:Sethladan|Sethladan]] 09:42, 10 May 2011 (EDT)

== Template:= ==
Think this is the most epic template I've ever seen! xD --[[User:Ravanel|Ravanel]] 06:03, 25 May 2011 (EDT)
:[[Quality|Epic]] is the right word :p --[[User:EoD|EoD]] 06:04, 25 May 2011 (EDT)

== <nowiki>{{new}}</nowiki> ==
Just wanting to ask you a couple of things about this and the related templates.
#Can you see what's causing the formatting of the <nowiki>{{:Motivating Speech|mode=imlink}}</nowiki> [https://test.fs.lmu.de/testwiki/index.php/Motivated here] to act strangely?
#Also wondering what's causing the formatting on [[User:Amphoras/Sandbox|sandbox here]] and [https://test.fs.lmu.de/testwiki/index.php/User:Amphoras/Sandbox sandbox on test wiki] to be different.
#Is the reason you need a : in the <nowiki>{{:Item:Cloak of Hwin}}</nowiki> on the test wiki but not here due to no Item namespace existing on the test wiki or is it something different? (not that its a problem, just wondering)
#Should we try to keep the parameters used throughout the different templates that link into <nowiki>{{new}}</nowiki> the same as far as possible? Just thinking for in the future if extra {{{mode}}} functionalities are added.
Thats all I can remember just now, if I think of anything else, I'll add it later. Thanks :) [[User:Amphoras|Amphoras]] 07:09, 25 May 2011 (EDT)
:#The problem is well known and as far as I know it has been fixed here (on lotro-wiki) in [[Template:Item Tooltip]], but the fix has not been ported to testwiki yet. Feel free to do that (find & transfer the fix). There is also a problem if you do something like "<nowiki>*{{Item:1}} <br - in the sense of a real line break> *{{Item:2}}</nowiki>" so far.
:#:EDIT: I should have mentioned that this is a typical issue where someone added a linebreak accidently in the template.
:#This looks like an alignment issue. We use "style{{=}}align: left" on testwiki and probably we don't use that here. Might be related to 1.
:#It seems that the wiki here allows "execution" of pages outside of the template namespace, but a default wiki (like testwik) doesn't. The (more general) notation with the ":" of testwiki should also work here though.
:#Yes, all (direct) supertemplates should use the same parameters from their respective subtemplate.
:#*If you think about "changing a parameter's behaviour" (e.g. new mode types) think also about other templates which use <nowiki>{{new}}</nowiki>.
:#*If it's about "adding a parameter" think if other templates could use the same. 
:#**If they all could use it, add it to <nowiki>{{new}}</nowiki>.
:#**If only a few require it, think about adding a template which is in-between yours and <nowiki>{{new}}</nowiki> (a good example for that is the "recipe -> item -> new" chain).
:I hope I wrote it more or less understandable. If you have any other questions feel free to ask :) --[[User:EoD|EoD]] 13:08, 25 May 2011 (EDT)

== Item font ==
Hey EoD, you're the expert, so I'll post it here. Fingolwë and I were wondering about the font of item names, which is still far too bold. For instance if you look at the newly created [[Item:Shoulder Pads of Might|Shoulder Pads of Might]] (with very charming picture of Ravanel). I know you've been on this, not sure how that all ended. Is there anything that can be done about this? --[[User:Ravanel|Ravanel]] 07:41, 25 May 2011 (EDT)
[[File:Bold letters example.png|thumb|400px|right|Example of thick letters compared to in-game tooltip]]
:The problem is a "selflink" on the title. As [[Template:Quality]] does return a link instead of a coloured plain string, the title always gets a link and I can't control that. And if the page the link links to is the same as the current page the link gets removed and a bold text appears (e.g. [[User talk:EoD]] vs [[User talk:Ravanel]]). If we change [[Template:Quality|Quality]] we could fix that (and we did that on testwiki already), but it's too soon here. The latter change depends on some more changes on [[Template:Item Tooltip]] and many other probably. Sorry about that --[[User:EoD|EoD]] 12:54, 25 May 2011 (EDT)
::OK, so as I understand it, it's waiting until you and Seth pick up the [https://test.fs.lmu.de/testwiki/index.php/Template:New "Template to bind them"] again and then it could be fixed easily. Will just hope that day will come soon then. :) --[[User:Ravanel|Ravanel]] 13:07, 25 May 2011 (EDT)
::: To stick my nose in here and give credit where it's due, Seth has been really inactive lately, heh. Seems like EoD and Amphoras are the new template dynamo team. :) I have a lot of catching up to do on my wiki reading now that my Internet is back up, it seems! [[User:Sethladan|Sethladan]] 21:47, 26 May 2011 (EDT)

== tooltip colours ==
''Hey,''
''I just saw you reverted my edits on the quest page. I took quite some effort into making the colours of the transclusion read-able and looking like ingame. It seems like you missed the whole discussion about it (there is a hint on Template_talk:Item Tooltip#Clean_up), but the respone I got so far was fine. Don't you see shadows at all? Or do just don't like the way it's displayed? Any suggestions to improve that? --EoD 18:49, 5 June 2011 (EDT)''
:Hmmm, shadows?  I don't see shadows behind the text with the item link, no.  I can't really read ones in green or yellow either, but the white ones absolutely disappear.  I was adding quest text, so I changed it -- is it readable when you look at it?  As soon as I hover over the text, of course, I see the tooltip and know what's there, but I have a hard time leaving it unreadable otherwise.  Is there some setting I should change?  I stopped using the default skin a while back when I was having issues with it, could that have anything to do with it? I do like the way it's displayed, though, haven't been able to think of any way to improve it to make it readable, so hadn't mentioned anything yet. [[User:Rubyctook|Rubyctook]] 11:35, 6 June 2011 (EDT)
::''What do you see on [https://test.fs.lmu.de/testwiki/index.php/Tooltip_colours#plain_3 testwiki's colour page]? It should look similiar to [https://img718.imageshack.us/img718/5404/tooltipcolour.png this one]. What browser / OS do you use? --[[User:EoD|EoD]] 11:49, 6 June 2011 (EDT)''
:::Ah-ha.  I can see why you were confused, because that second image does look readable.  However, I don't see any shadows behind the text on a plain page, even on the testwiki page.  I use IE8 and Vista.  But I also occasionally use a computer w/XP and I can't swear to it, but I don't believe I see shadows then, either.  Which is decidedly strange . . . hmmm. [[User:Rubyctook|Rubyctook]] 11:58, 6 June 2011 (EDT)

== Inclusion by template used ==
Hi EoD, do you know of any way to change how a transcluded template behaves based on what other template are used on the final page? I want the imlink function of the <nowiki>{{Item Tooltip}} to give a slightly different output when used on pages that use {{deed}}</nowiki>, but not when its used in other places. [[User:Amphoras|Amphoras]] ([[User talk:Amphoras|talk]]) 10:35, 13 June 2011 (EDT)
:The only idea I have in mind is to parse <nowiki>{{NAMESPACE}}</nowiki> and adjust the tooltip template accordingly. --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 11:41, 13 June 2011 (EDT)
::That's what I was trying just now, but the namespaces don't always work out nicely. I'll try and have a think about it. [[User:Amphoras|Amphoras]] ([[User talk:Amphoras|talk]]) 12:26, 13 June 2011 (EDT)

== Quests ==
''Hey! Do you know what the name of the questchain for [[Quest:Uniformity|Uniformity]] and [[Quest:Behind Bars|Behind Bars]] is? I'm not sure if you already know, but we have a questchain parameter of the infobox quest template in order to use the same questchain list in all quest. See [[User_talk:Sethladan#A_double_question_-_questline|here]] for more information. --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD|talk]]) 10:02, 16 July 2011 (EDT)''
:It didn't have a chain name. -- [[User:Starbursty|Starbursty]] ([[User talk:Starbursty#top|talk]]) 10:06, 16 July 2011 (EDT)

::I just checked -- this quest group doesn't have a chain name... 

::It might almost be considered a "pre-requisite" rather than a chain situation. You have to complete Behind Bars before Dagoras will appear to give you the repeatable - Uniformity. 
::A second group of quests is also unlocked in a similar fashion. -- with the repeatable [[Quest:Black Flames]] and [[Quest:Midnight Hunters]] from Amarion after [[Quest:A Timely Rescue]] is completed. 
::... Braigiar gives you both "lead -n" quests.
:::The string "Shadows from Afar is the quest string associated with "A timely rescue." However, only [[[[Quest:Feral Shadow|Feral Shadow]]] is listed as in that string.The two repeatable are not.
::: I Have created/updated the Shadows from Afar string accordingly.
::[[User:Magill|Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC]] ([[User talk:Magill|talk]]) 20:39, 16 July 2011 (EDT)

== <nowiki>{{Skill:Return to Camp|mode=imlink}}  </nowiki>??? ==
Any chance to get the Skill stuff to work the same way as "Items"?  

or does it already, and I'm not doing it right, or do I need to do something else ? 

This exists ... [[Return to Camp]] but this <nowiki>{{Skill:Return to Camp|mode=imlink}} </nowiki>doesn't.

Playing with: [[User:Magill/Sandbox 8. ... building a list of the assorted travel "thingies" to add to the travel page.

:Heya, there is something in progress on testwiki. I think Amphoras showed it to you once, just check out testwiki. And by the way, just type &#60;br/> in order to get a nice linebreak, not a whole new paragraph :) --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 21:03, 16 July 2011 (EDT)

== Quests ==
''Can you please use the [[Create_new_quest|new layout]] when creating new quests? You should not create tables on questpages anymore. --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD|talk]]) 14:38, 18 July 2011 (EDT)''
:What tables? I am not sure what you are talking about. -- [[User:Starbursty|Starbursty]] ([[User talk:Starbursty|talk]]) 21:42, 18 July 2011 (EDT)
:: ''Those tables which start with <nowiki>{|</nowiki>. [https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php?title=Quest:Chapter_5:_The_Battle_of_the_Twenty-first_Hall&diff=prev&oldid=288729 This] is a change where I cleaned up a quest and replaced the tables with questboxes. That's the new way :) --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD|talk]]) 21:47, 18 July 2011 (EDT)''
:::Okay, sounds good. -- [[User:Starbursty|Starbursty]] ([[User talk:Starbursty|talk]]) 21:53, 18 July 2011 (EDT)

== test wiki ==
I will try to be on tonight after work, but if I miss you ask around for my email, someone should have it. --[[User:Lotroadmin|Lotroadmin]] ([[User talk:Lotroadmin|talk]]) 13:39, 16 August 2011 (EDT)
:Was doing some stuff on here today, and quite a few of the links aren't working properly, eg. the Words of Courage link on https://testwiki.skunark.net/index.php/User:Amphoras/Sandbox [https://testwiki.skunark.net/testwiki/index.php/Words%20of%20Courage this]. It should be [https://testwiki.skunark.net/index.php/Words%20of%20Courage this] instead, without the /testwiki. Some links seem ok like the version showing the full tooltip links to the correct page. Is it something from the site being moved, or is it probably something else? Dunno if theres anything you can do about it or not, but thought I'd mention it anyway. [[User:Amphoras|Amphoras]] ([[User talk:Amphoras|<span class="tttemplatelink">talk</span><span style="display:none;">Talk to me!</span>]]) 10:54, 5 September 2011 (EDT)
:: That sounds very much like '''var extURL''' in [[MediaWiki:Lord of the tooltips.js]] ;) --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 22:36, 5 September 2011 (EDT)
:::Long time later, but yeah it was '''var extURL'''. The links seem to work ok now. [[User:Amphoras|Amphoras]] ([[User talk:Amphoras|<span class="tttemplatelink">talk</span><span style="display:none;">Talk to me!</span>]]) 10:59, 10 September 2011 (EDT)

== Any idea why this doesn't work...  (I think this was your project.) ==
In the quest page [[Quest:The_Twilight_Estates]], the line:

<nowiki>* '''Read {{Item:Orchalwë's Journal on the Twilight Hills|mode=imlink|}} and reclaim [[Tham Nambarth]]'''</nowiki>

does not generate the pop-up... but a kind of "stuttering" cursor effect.

On subsequent pages in the chain.... such as the "infobox" on the right... the "Starts with" item, when hovered sometimes does the same thing and sometimes pops-up the tooltip immediately.<br />
Sometimes when you hover, stutter, and then click on the link... (i.e. in fairly quich succession) an "error" of some sort pops up very briefly and then the page changes.<br />
After that, the tooltip works "as expected." 

I guess the question is... is this a bug with the Wiki engine... or simply the way that it works (caching issues and all that)?
[[User:Magill|Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC]] ([[User talk:Magill|talk]]) 22:25, 21 August 2011 (EDT)

:First of all, I think it should be <nowiki>{{Item:Orchalwë's Journal on the Twilight Hills|mode=imlink}}</nowiki> instead of <nowiki>{{Item:Orchalwë's Journal on the Twilight Hills|mode=imlink|}}</nowiki>. Note the "|" at the end!
:I know what you are talking about. I didn't had this issue with firefox, only with chrome so far. It's probably happening if your internet connection is too slow to fetch the popup in time, so it will restart the loading procedure -over and over again (that's the '''stuttering effect'''). The error might appear if you somehow "disturb" the loading procedures (plural; assuming you had the issue stated before), if you either press the button or hover during the loading of the 1st item onto another popup ''or'' if the loading procedures disturb themselves (that's the '''error of some sort'''). After loading has been finished once for all items, those popups will be cached and therefore the popups won't have those 2 above mentioned effects anymore (that's the '''tooltip works as expected''').
:I already thought about fixing that, but I had no easy idea how to do so apart from loading *all* popups on a page once page has finished loading. But that might first of all mean more load on the wiki and more bandwidth usage for each user.
:The problem is that I didn't wrote the popup from scratch (what would be much better I guess), but I used a mixture between the old popup and the one from the guy of wowwiki. Hence it's hard for me to really fix the bug...
:--[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 09:56, 22 August 2011 (EDT)
:: I suspected as much ... especially since I routinely clear my browser cache when I start up. [[User:Magill|Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC]] ([[User talk:Magill|talk]]) 16:48, 22 August 2011 (EDT)

::: I hope I fixed most of your issues [[MediaWiki talk:Lord of the tooltips.js#New_Caching|with the new caching]]. --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 10:23, 18 October 2011 (EDT)

== Lore-master Skills with Missing Values ==
{{:User:Ravanel/Sandbox2}}
:Hi EoD! Here some homework for Ninúwen as she slowly levels up. It would be great if you could keep me/the wiki updated with these values. Thanks a lot in advance! --[[User:Ravanel|Ravanel]] ([[User talk:Ravanel|talk]]) 09:00, 19 September 2011 (EDT)
::Please remind me from time to time ;) --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 12:12, 22 September 2011 (EDT)
:::Will do! Like... now! :P
:::I've found more pages to gather values for, this time it's the Lore-master pet skills (see above new table). It's a bit more advanced than the actual Lore-master skills, but would be great if you could help out once more. Information on how-to-gather found on [[User:Ravanel/Sandbox2]] at the bottom of the page. --[[User:Ravanel|Ravanel]] ([[User talk:Ravanel|talk]]) 14:24, 26 September 2011 (EDT)
::::"''Yes, you are entering information from "the future", but the information is correct!''" - xD --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 02:16, 27 September 2011 (EDT)

== Distraction ==
Seems a bit weird how the damage of this Raven skill scales. Not sure what's up there nor how to find out. Question out of curiosity: when you inspected for these [https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php?title=Distraction&action=historysubmit&diff=321425&oldid=320978] changes, did you indeed have [[Hardy Companion]] traited? --[[User:Ravanel|Ravanel]] ([[User talk:Ravanel|talk]]) 20:21, 27 September 2011 (EDT)
:Possibly, shouldn't I? I will check it --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 20:28, 27 September 2011 (EDT)
::Note that if you have [[Hardy Companion]] traited, you need to take the +2% outgoing pet damage into account. 
::OK, I found some interesting things regarding [[Distraction]]. Apparently it is regarded as a Tactical Skill and the tooltip is thus influenced by the Tactical offence (for instance found on all LI staves) of the Lore-master. Remove your LI's, mouse over it again, and you will see a clear difference!
::There is also a discrepancy between the Lore-master's and the Bog-lurker's [[Angry Bees]], but this seems to point at another thing: the pet itself must have a hidden ranged offence bonus. It would be interesting to find out how big this offence bonus actually is.
::I will have to do more testing on these pet skills (other pet skills don't seem to be affected by anything, luckily) and will post things in my first Sandbox. Please keep your eyes open regarding these skills in the meanwhile.--[[User:Ravanel|Ravanel]] ([[User talk:Ravanel|talk]]) 07:10, 3 October 2011 (EDT)

== Icons ==

===Gimp===
Hi, I noticed you added a note about removing the transparent pixels in the corners of skill icons. Do you have a recommendation for how to do that? I'm using Paint and GIMP (though I'm new to the latter program). --[[User:Elinnea|Elinnea]] ([[User talk:Elinnea|talk]]) 15:27, 30 September 2011 (EDT)

:Hey. According to [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paint_(software) wikipedia], the Paint program in Windows doesn't support the Alpha channel (transparency channel) for PNG files. I use [https://gimp-win.sourceforge.net/stable.html gimp] for all of my edits, it's very similar to Photoshop but it's free ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratis_versus_libre#.22Free_beer.22_vs_.22free_speech.22_distinction as in "free speech" not as in "free beer" :p] ). There you can use the pen and choose "colour erase" and the pixels you paint will get transparent. Unfortunately the [https://docs.gimp.org/en/gimp-painting.html documentation] is currently down. --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 07:15, 1 October 2011 (EDT)

::I'm using GIMP as well and have spent ages to get this to work, but so far without success. If I choose the "Colour erase" mode this does not show any noticeable difference. Same for using the option "Rounded edges". If I open the file later on, it keeps showing the ugly black corner pixels. Any tips? --[[User:Ravanel|Ravanel]] ([[User talk:Ravanel|talk]]) 07:33, 1 October 2011 (EDT)

::: Most important part is to create a (direct) png screenshot. If you have a jpg file, you have to do something like [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhH2FNnjnUg that] or even easier something like [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmBvCAp1Lgs that] (or maybe you missed [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1l_8soySfc to save the alpha channel]?).
:::If you are using the "Snipping Tool" from Windows then save your file as .png! You can use this .png file in GIMP and try to do what I described above (open file, use pen, select "colour erase" instead of "normal" and click the pixels you want to remove). I can try to make a step by step screenshot-explanation as soon as I'm at my computer again.
::: Another issue might be using an old version of GIMP, as feature like that might have been not there before. Be sure to use GIMP 2.6.11 (or 2.7.3) or newer.
::: --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 09:22, 1 October 2011 (EDT)

::::I'm quite used to GIMP to do whatever. The option "Colour erase" is there, it just does not do anything noticeable. If I open a .png file in it, it changes to .xml (or whatever the GIMP format is called). I'll give it another go, but perhaps it would be easiest if you'd explain while we try to do it simultaneously while on IRC. Would be great. I don't have much space on my pc and am rather happy with how GIMP performs, so would rather not install other software. --[[User:Ravanel|Ravanel]] ([[User talk:Ravanel|talk]]) 17:39, 1 October 2011 (EDT)

:::::Ok, the feature "colour erase" erases the colour you selected. If you select black it will remove black and leave all the other "colours" on that pixel alive. Actually I found a better way: Use the "Eraser Tool", select Brush Circle (01), scale to 1.0 and opacq to 100% and select only "Hard edges". This will remove all colours from pixel. If you leave "Hard edges" unchecked you get a smoother colour eraser (looks better on some ocasions). I won't be on IRC the next time, I'm actually on holidays. But we can do that later if it still doesn't work. --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 20:42, 1 October 2011 (EDT)

::::::Wow, EoD. That "Eraser Tool" thingy actually worked. O_O
::::::Thanks for solving this old problem for me, we definitely need to write this down somewhere official! --[[User:Ravanel|Ravanel]] ([[User talk:Ravanel|talk]]) 06:57, 3 October 2011 (EDT)

::::EOD... Can you elaborate and stick your comments and instructions into [[Help:Images#Icons]] ... I too occasionally wind up with "black edges" -- which I think is what you are talking about '''File:Deadly_Immolation-icon.png''' -- And short of "cropping less than 32x32 I am not aware of what to do with them. --[[User:Magill|Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC]] ([[User talk:Magill|talk]]) 17:02, 1 October 2011 (EDT)
:::::I can try to do that some other day. But I never experienced something like "black edges", I really mean "black corners" like [[File:Home - Eregion-icon.png]] :). If you use a program which makes a .png file (NOT a .jpg or similar file) you should get precise 32x32 icons on your screenshot. How are you taking the screenshot? Do you have an example? --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 20:42, 1 October 2011 (EDT)

===Paint.NET===
I use Paint.NET, which is a free download (FOSS, GPL) windows program. I find it very easy to use, as it conforms to the windows UI idioms. I've been thinking about writing up a little blurb for the image help page. I might be persuaded to do it sooner rather than latter if anyone is interested. [[User:RingTailCat|RingTailCat]] ([[User talk:RingTailCat|talk]]) 10:40, 1 October 2011 (EDT)

: I just discovered Paint.NET last night (for some reason, GIMP doesn't work for me), and can second RTC's endorsement. I'm pretty clueless when it comes to editing graphics, but was able to pretty quickly figure out how to manage the transparent corners. If he doesn't do the blurb, I might...eventually. :-P [[User:Sethladan|Sethladan]] 11:49, 1 October 2011 (EDT)

:: I've just downloaded Paint.NET also to have a look at it, and it seems very convenient, especially for a simple and repetitive task like this. I'd be interested in a blurb, whoever wants to write it. (nudge nudge) --[[User:Elinnea|Elinnea]] ([[User talk:Elinnea|talk]]) 12:34, 1 October 2011 (EDT)

:::Others... can you insert info on Paint.NET into the [[Help:Images]] page please. --[[User:Magill|Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC]] ([[User talk:Magill|talk]]) 17:02, 1 October 2011 (EDT)

Here are some quick and dirty comments about using Paint.NET: background first: I run the game on a Win 7 box on a 2048x1152 23" monitor. I have two monitors, so I run the game in windowed mode so I can easily use the 2nd monitor for email, browsing, etc. while I play the game. My screenshots come out at 2030x1059. I have lots of disk, so I do not worry about compressing images. 

When I extract images and icons, the only tool I use is the rectangle select tool. I zoom in (using the keypad-+ key) until the selection target takes up 1/4 or more of the Paint.NET window. For icons, I zoom even further. At that high resolution, the pixels show as little squares, so it is very easy to lasso the right pixels. Then, I use the Image->Crop to Selection to isolate the thing I am interested in. I have the status bar set to display the selection size in pixels instead of inches or centimeters.

If I save the sub-image as a JPG, I use the highest quality setting. Jpeg compression can be brutal to image quality. If I save as a PNG, I use loss-less compression. If I can, I try to go straight from the screenshot to the PNG icon. If not, I try to minimize the number of JPG save/load cycles.

There are two things I try to watch out for. The game's anti-aliasing features will mess up icons - you can get interaction between the icon and nearby tooltips, for instance. Transparent window backgrounds causes anti-aliasing to muddy icons as well. I try to grab my icons from a black background window or position the window over something very dark.

So, a typical work flow has me hover over an object in my inventory and hit H to get a locked tooltip window. Then I hit F11 to take the screenshot. Then double click the screenshot image file to get it into Paint.NET. I zoom in a couple of times, lasso the tooltip with the rectangle select tool, crop to selection and save as "<item name> tt.jpg". Then I zoom in about 8 more times, hit Home twice to get to the upper left corner of the tooltop image and lasso the 32x32 pixel icon, crop, and save as "<item name>-icon.png". I have all the tooltip info in a neat format, and the best quality icon image for later use on the wiki before the mobs notice I'm not paying attention. More often though, I leave image extraction for later.

== Template:Training price ==
Was excited to find out the training price is actually set per level and that you managed to find the formula! Tested your template on a skill page (since I need to double check all Lore-master skills once more anyway), but it adds an extra enter (a "<nowiki><br></nowiki>", so to say) underneath it. Is there a way to remove this enter? It messes up the layout skill pages. --[[User:Ravanel|Ravanel]] ([[User talk:Ravanel|talk]]) 08:15, 3 October 2011 (EDT)
:Sorry, read your message too late. Is this still the case? --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 06:56, 7 October 2011 (EDT)
::You fixed it. :) --[[User:Ravanel|Ravanel]] ([[User talk:Ravanel|talk]]) 07:23, 7 October 2011 (EDT)

== Testing Tooltip Coords ==
You asked if we could test [[Template_talk:Tooltip_Coords#New_code]] for you. I'm willing to help, but am not sure what exactly you want me to test, and how to do that. I can only tell that it seems like all Rise of Isengard coordinates (still) don't work. --[[User:Ravanel|Ravanel]] ([[User talk:Ravanel|talk]]) 07:27, 7 October 2011 (EDT)

:Yeah, just test it on testwiki (it's not yet here) and tell me if those examples work for you. I was want to be sure that it works on some browsers (e.g. IE?) some operating systems (e.g. MacOS?) before porting it. I already did some testing though. :) --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 11:09, 7 October 2011 (EDT)

:: Don't know if this is related ... on the main wiki, the Coords for Dunland spots appear to be shifted "left" (nominally West, I assume) on the Dunland Map, when compared to the "pointie" on the in-game main map.  I.e. stand in front of an NPC or landmark and compare the main game map (M) pointer location with where the ToolTip puts you... about 1/8 of an inch west. N/S seems to be OK.

:: On your Test-wiki page... the "milestone" example is "wrong" ... The coordinates are for the Thorin's Homestead milestone, but it is showing on the wrong side of the river compared to the milestone indicator on the in-game map. 
:: And I don't see a "swirlie" for the Barnovan Mine on the Dunland example.   (OSX Lion 7.1- Safari 5.1) [[User:Magill|Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC]] ([[User talk:Magill|talk]]) 15:43, 8 October 2011 (EDT)

:I think I Just found the error on the Dunland map... the lower right coordinate is 1.9 W not 19.9E. [[User:Magill|Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC]] ([[User talk:Magill|talk]]) 15:47, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
::That's true, but still the coordinates are more off then expected. Will work on this later during the day. --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 03:19, 9 October 2011 (EDT)

== Busy BoDy ==
Hiya! (No, haven't seen any problems yet, relax) Just curious why the bot made [https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php?title=Angmar&curid=3342&diff=347684&oldid=305150 this] change to the noinclude. [[User:Sethladan|Sethladan]] 14:37, 13 October 2011 (EDT)

:I'm not sure if this is actually a problem on most pages, but I noticed that BoD "cleaned up" one badly-written link like this: in the Woodworker page, (old version) <nowiki>[[Category:Woodworker_Melee_Weapons|melee]]</nowiki> got moved down on the page. That's a problem because before the bot, it was clear that a colon was missing (it should have been <nowiki>[[:Category:Woodworker_Melee_Weapons|melee]]</nowiki>. Now, the paragraph just looks like the author got confused or didn't know how to form a complete sentence - and the page is still erroneously registered in that category. Now in the future I won't be stupid enough to leave the colon off, but is there any way that it can check for category links that (a) are in the middle of text and (b) include alt text, and mark the pages to be checked without altering them, or something? -[[User:Adelas|Adelas]] ([[User talk:Adelas|talk]]) 00:21, 14 October 2011 (EDT)

::a) The bot can detect those page and react accordingly. I can let the bot run in no-change mode and he will list all pages which have their category in the wrong place. Does that help somehow? The problem is that the bot already finished with all pages, that means there is no category in the middle of the text left ;).
::b) A <nowiki>[[Category:Woodworker_Melee_Weapons|melee]]</nowiki> does make sense, it sorts the page in the Ctagory Woodworker_Melee_Weapons and lists it under "melee" instead of it's real name. So it's not possible to check for cats with "alt text", as most of those would make sense.
::--[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 06:36, 14 October 2011 (EDT)

:::Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you are saying in part (b). Are you saying that, in the example we're using above, <br>
:::(scenario B1) the page "Woodworker" would be placed into the Category "Woodworker Melee Weapons" and listed/alphabetized there as "melee" instead of "Woodworker"? <br>
::::Yes
:::OR <are you saying that <br>
:::(scenario B2)on the page "Woodworker", one of the categories shown at the bottom of the page would be named "melee" instead of "Woodworker Melee Weapons? <br>
::::No
:::Now remember, in this case, I was trying to link to the category page, not add the category to the page, and the bot doesn't know the difference, because I left off that leading colon. HOWEVER, I can't think of a reason that it would ever be appropriate to have scenario B1 OR scenario B2 happen. We would not want the page listed in the category with the wrong pagename, and we would not want the category shown on the page with a misleading category name.... would we? -[[User:Adelas|Adelas]] ([[User talk:Adelas|talk]]) 16:26, 14 October 2011 (EDT)
::::We are using this in a lot of places, see for example [[Creature]]s or [[Template:Item Tooltip|item pages]]. This way you can put some pages to the top of a category using "*" or you can ignore leading words like "Item:" (although we got a new namespace for those now). --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 19:10, 14 October 2011 (EDT)


Another thing: I have no idea how and why, but I noticed the page [[Herald]] suddenly is without category. The last 'person' who did something (earlier changes were in 2009) was... BoD: [https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php?title=Herald&action=historysubmit&diff=350076&oldid=117966]. Has he been naughty? --[[User:Ravanel|Ravanel]] ([[User talk:Ravanel|talk]]) 10:03, 14 October 2011 (EDT)
:No, he was fine. [https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php?title=Herald&action=historysubmit&diff=55946&oldid=55125 Xander was naughty], not closing the <nowiki><gallery/></nowiki> ;).  --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 10:12, 14 October 2011 (EDT)


Please change Npcbox/Preload to remove the ".jpg" from "image = .jpg". As it currently stands, this leads to creating images like "[[:File:Morn.jpg.jpg]]" (it should be "[[:File:Morn.jpg]]") when one is not careful about the default image name! It is possible that other preload pages need similar repairs. [[User:RingTailCat|RingTailCat]] ([[User talk:RingTailCat|talk]]) 11:59, 14 October 2011 (EDT)
:Done --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 12:35, 14 October 2011 (EDT)

I've only just noticed the less than desirable changes that BoD made to the Call to Greatness page [https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php?title=Call_to_Greatness&action=historysubmit&diff=348349&oldid=342252 here]. It's kind of an outdated table anyway but I thought maybe I should point it out in case it comes up somewhere else or in the future. -- [[User:Elinnea|Elinnea]] ([[User talk:Elinnea|talk]]) 18:41, 14 November 2011 (EST)
:What precisely is bad about those changes? -[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 15:21, 22 November 2011 (EST)
::It wiped out any line in the table that starts with a + sign. I remember seeing a discussion somewhere recently about issues related to names starting with +, not sure where though. I fixed that table in my next edit by adding a space before each plus or minus so they show up properly in the table. -- [[User:Elinnea|Elinnea]] ([[User talk:Elinnea|talk]]) 15:28, 22 November 2011 (EST)
:::Oh, now I see it. Hmmm, I don't know why that happened. It might be related that mediawiki parses "|+", or maybe it's even a bug. I think I can't do very much about it atm :s --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 15:38, 22 November 2011 (EST)

== Safari editing / Font issue... ==
Hmm. it appears that what I'm seeing is a "know WebKit bug/issue"... apparently dating back several years.
: https://fogbugz.stackexchange.com/questions/4506/wiki-editor-doesnt-track-formatting-changes-on-safari-5
: https://dev.ckeditor.com/ticket/1272
and apparently not yet fixed under Lion 10.7.2 - Safari 5.1.1

Recap... when editing:   [[User:Adelas/Sandbox-itemboilerplate]]  the content in the preview section is perfectly aligned... but the editing window is not.
*Neither Safari font settings nor lotro-wiki/preferences/editing makes any difference.
*Even setting the Safari "Default font" to Courier 13 -- same as the "Fixed-width Font" has no effect on the editing window.
--[[User:Magill|Magill]] ([[User talk:Magill|talk]]) 15:28, 16 October 2011 (EDT) 

: The [https://dev.ckeditor.com/ticket/1272 ticket 1272] has been marked as [https://dev.ckeditor.com/changeset/6461 ''fixed''] more than half a year ago. It is definitely in version [https://dev.ckeditor.com/browser/CKEditor/branches/versions/3.5.x 3.5] of CKEditor.
: But I can't help you any further I think; I never used Safari. But you can always [https://support.mozilla.com/en-US/kb/Installing%20Firefox%20on%20Mac move to Firefox] if you want to ;)
: --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 17:29, 16 October 2011 (EDT)
::According to the way I read it:
:::"For ticket #253, the required feature has been created for FF, IE and Opera. We haven't found a feasible way to have this feature on Safari, so more investigation is needed."
::And "A 90% fix for this bug"

::It appears that it is still non-functional for Safari. And there IS a difference between the IBM WebKit (which is what 1272 apparently fixed) and the Apple WebKit... not to mention the Open Source project WebKIt.
::Reading the Wikipedia article on  WebKit [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebKit] is interesting in itself.

::So I guess I'll have to see about FF (can't deal with the thought of using Crome). Guess it's time to see if they fixed FF for OSX. It broke about a year ago when FF did a major version upgrade. [[User:Magill|Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC]] ([[User talk:Magill|talk]]) 18:03, 16 October 2011 (EDT)

::Argh... FF is still brain dead. Can't import bookmarks, preferences, etc. from Safari even though it claims to be doing so... and where did they ever get that really weird "layout" for the browser controls.
::But at least it does display the contents of the Edit window correctly. ... ok I filed a bug with Apple (or at least I used Safari's bug reporting "thing" ... no idea what it does/did ... no confirmation of any kind.

:::Hehe, good luck with the bug report. Hopefully the next FF version (8) will import Safari data properly :) --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 18:44, 16 October 2011 (EDT)

== Map idea ==
When surfing some T pages it struck me as a blitz: we do not need to tell '''''which map''''' to use in coordinates, boilerplates, or anything else. Ever. Or perhaps optional but only if there is a possible choice between overlapping.

No coordinate ever exists at several maps, unless they overlap but then the one with the higher resolution is the preferred choice. Thus our JS code can rather be a matrix with NS-min/max, WE-min/max, and the map (possibly implemented as a switch/case style matrix). From the given coordinates, find which one map that matches the values. Use that one. Only if a map is specified we'd use that as before. If the numbers are off, display an "error-map" or maybe one of the entire Eriador or Rhovanion ;)

It would be backward compatible, nothing need changes but the current boilerplates.

Benefits: Nothing exciting perhaps. Less error prone about map name misspelling. Automatic use of best resolution if better map-scale exists. A lot less to type when adding/creating pages. Each boilerplate has one variable less, even if support for it will continue to exist in the templates (and documented at the boilerplate). More? I need coffee ;) -- Zimoon 12:49, 20 October 2011 (EDT)

: I once thought of this, too, and it sounds like a great idea. Unfortunately (and I need to confirm this), I think there are different sets of coordinates east and west of Moria (otherwise the east end of Mirkwood would probably be at over +1,000E. You can check this in-game yourself, too, by zooming in and out of the different maps and checking what coordinates come up as you mouse around. If I'm wrong, then awesome! (Wait, I shouldn't be excited to be wrong...) [[User:Sethladan|Sethladan]] 13:01, 20 October 2011 (EDT)

:: We still need to tell SN and WE so I think that is not a problem. Maybe there are "reserved" coordinates, such as in dungeons or so, that we need to pander for. Are there? -- Zimoon 13:35, 20 October 2011 (EDT)

::: There is a problem area in [[The Pristine Glade]] at the west side of [[Dunbog]] in [[Dunland]]. The map coordinates in this area take you off the west side of the Dunland map. Some locations wrap around to the east side of the Dunland map, but others do not show on the map at all. Of course the in-game map (last time I checked) showed the Eriador map instead of the Dunland map.
::: Our pop-up map cannot be as smart or useful as the in-game map. You are suggesting to decide which map will pop-up based on the coordinates. That may not be appropriate, and cannot be controlled by the page viewer, and your suggestion removes that control from the page author. I am thinking of the area around Bree-town specifically. But I think there are areas in Moria, and perhaps around [[Caras Galadhon]] where it might be hard to guess which map to use.
::: Based on the coordinates, you might be able to guess a good map to use. But perhaps that guessing should only be done when the page author has not provided a map name. I'm not sure that using a rectangular area for choosing the higher resolution map will do the right thing all the time.
::: BTW, map name mis-spellings are not something we need to guard against too vigorously. It is the page author's responsibility to preview the page, and check that coordinates put the mark at the right place - when the map name is wrong, it is pretty obvious! [[User:RingTailCat|RingTailCat]] ([[User talk:RingTailCat|talk]]) 14:00, 20 October 2011 (EDT)

:::: Nope RTC, two arguments are invalid.
:::: The logic already today handles east versus west, that is not at all different. Any logic can differ between W from E for the conditional to work. The tech details are easily handled. &mdash; With the risk to be boring: for a software developer it is easy to check whether 2W and 3E should match the same map; there are several ways whereof one is to "translate" E to negative values and say that a certain map is used for values between -12 to 8 NW '''and''' 6 to 22 NS. We do not need to tint ideas red when there is no alert to be found ;)
:::: Because the old template variable ''is not removed'' the option is not taken away from the editor. For example, if you want to use the Bree-land map for an NPC standing in Archet, just go ahead. I quote from above ''"if a map is specified we'd use that as before ... It would be backward compatible..."''
:::: We did not really stress the misspell error, sorry that it come up early, perhaps because I have found a few within a week's time. A better argument is that sometimes an editor do not know that a better choice of map exists, such as for Thorin's Gate, Archet, or within Bree, but they use what they have seen elsewhere, I have come across several of that type of .. hmm .. not-best-choice; of course nothing is broken, but for a visitor I guess it is better to see a high-scale map than Ered Luin for something around Frerin's Court, right?
:::: This is still just a suggestion, whether good nor bad. -- Zimoon 14:16, 20 October 2011 (EDT)

:::::Sorry, I missed the bit about backward compatibility. As long as the page author can specify a map name, and that specification is used - ok. What about coordinates for things like the skirmishes in Bree or Attack at Dawn, or that instance way in the north of Forochel? Can they be properly distinguished from erroneous coordinates? Perhaps we should disable the save page button, unless the show preview button has been used at least once! And strongly encourage folks to check their changes. One thing I noticed is there seems to be a bit of hysteresis with the maps in-game. I think there are regions where maps overlap, but which map gets shown seems to depend on where you came from. [[User:RingTailCat|RingTailCat]] ([[User talk:RingTailCat|talk]]) 14:54, 20 October 2011 (EDT)

::::::No worries, yes, I have seen that myself. The "old map" kind of lives on some extra meters into the new zone. In and out of northern port of Bree for example. And many more. I have added links to two maps at some rare cases, when the object is just in between two maps .. but seldom though. At "critical" areas we may have to think twice which map should be default, I'd guess more based on usability and from case to case. But since the option to specify map is suggested to stay that should never cause a real problem, if we see the system make a "wrong decision" we specify the human choice. Still this is just a discussion of possibilities, personally I see a lot more pros than cons tho :) -- Zimoon 16:48, 20 October 2011 (EDT)

:::::::One of things I like now is that if you include the map name, but omit coordinates, you still get a map, but with no hot-spot. Without the name, you get a black splotch - less elegant, I think. I don't always recognize the place names, but I do recognize all the maps! I wonder if it would be helpful to translate every name that can appear beneath the radar and coordinates into the correct map. When I want to capture a location's coordinates, I sometimes clip out a small part of the screenshot containing only the radar, coordinates and location name. It's a good reminder of why I took the screenshot. [[User:RingTailCat|RingTailCat]] ([[User talk:RingTailCat|talk]]) 17:10, 20 October 2011 (EDT)

:::::::: Not sure exactly what you want, but from coords you would be able to get the correct map wherever in middle-earth that is, ''with'' a hot-spot at the right location which indicates where you were. For "no"-coords you still need to type the correct map name, yes. And I like it too, having a map at least :) -- Zimoon 17:25, 20 October 2011 (EDT)

::::::::: Not sure if I should say anything more here, I like the idea and thought about it already. But it was too much effort for my motivation at that time.
::::::::: If Zimoon wants to program that, I don't have any objections and I can review the code (as long as it's not getting too lengthy). But I currently have other (bigger) projects running which get my whole (wiki) attention.
::::::::: Btw: You might want to have a look at [[User talk:Eleazaros/coords.js]] for that "no"-coords.
::::::::: --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 12:47, 21 October 2011 (EDT)

== Effects ==
Hi, [[Wisdom of the Council (Effect)]] is still broken. I think it has something to do with the toc not allowing anything to be on that side of it. I tried to fix it a few days ago, but it didn't work and I've got too much stuff on just now to try some more. Could you have a look if you have time? If not, I can try and fix it again when I get the time. [[User:Amphoras|Amphoras]] ([[User talk:Amphoras|<span class="tttemplatelink">talk</span><span style="display:none;">Talk to me!</span>]]) 06:39, 26 October 2011 (EDT)
: It's really mysterious, yeah. I don't have very much time at the moment either and you already tried my first guess. If I have some random spare time, I will have a further look at it. --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 10:30, 26 October 2011 (EDT)
:: Added a NOTOC to the page (the toc isn't really needed anyway), giving you poor overworked wikinerds some breathing space in theorizing about what strange phenomenon was going on there. --[[User:Ravanel|Ravanel]] ([[User talk:Ravanel|talk]]) 05:19, 27 October 2011 (EDT)

== Re: Random ==
Erm yeah, our internet hasn't been working for a week now (in the whole flat) and only now it works again, but only on Fin's PC. I thus haven't been really up-to-date wikiwise (please tell me if anything important has been going on)! I'm looking forward to work/propose something on Item Sets together, that would be fun. Anyway, I'm suspecting my internet port of my PC has broken (everything always happens at the same time), which would be very bad news. Any nerd-tech help on IRC very welcome! I'm still hoping I'm being blonde and stupid and wrong in deducting this from moving several cables around. For now, I'll only be able to scarcely usurp Fin's PC now and then. --[[User:Ravanel|Ravanel]] ([[User talk:Ravanel|talk]]) 05:18, 27 October 2011 (EDT)
:Internet is up again! :D But where are you...? --[[User:Ravanel|Ravanel]] ([[User talk:Ravanel|talk]]) 07:01, 3 November 2011 (EDT)
::I'm a kind of busy at the moment with real life stuff, so I haven't been active/on the last week(s) :(. Hopefully this will change! --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 16:24, 3 November 2011 (EDT)

== Training price and gambits ==
I've noticed that Warden gambits apparently have a training price of exactly half of the price for a skill at the same level. Is there any way to include this in the training price template, or should I keep putting in the Warden costs manually? -- [[User:Elinnea|Elinnea]] ([[User talk:Elinnea|talk]]) 12:03, 27 October 2011 (EDT)
:Sorry for the late response, but can you please add the gambits to the (or a new?) table at [[Template:Training_price/sandbox]]? I will try to add this as soon as I have some time. --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 16:10, 3 November 2011 (EDT)
:: I added a table, and tried to include a range of levels. There's no rush - I know you've been busy. Let me know if there's anything else I can do to help. :) -- [[User:Elinnea|Elinnea]] ([[User talk:Elinnea|talk]]) 19:30, 3 November 2011 (EDT)
::: Please add more values you find directly to [https://testwiki.skunark.net/index.php/Template:Gambit_price/sandbox this table] in order to test the new template. It would be good to have values '''level 50 ± 1''', '''level 65 ± 1''' and '''level 11 ± 1'''. I guess there happen the 'jumps'. --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 23:46, 3 November 2011 (EDT)
:::: Here it is: [[Template:Gambit price|Gambit price]] and [[Template:Gambit price/sandbox|Gambit price/sandbox]]. --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 07:29, 4 November 2011 (EDT)

With the Update 6 warden update some of the gambit prices were changed, and many are trained at levels that never had gambits before. I've edited in the current gambit prices at [[Template:Gambit price/sandbox]].

They did add javelin forms of many of the gambits, which all seem to cost the normal gambit cost / 10 for the level. It's predictable, but perhaps not worth having the template account for it. There's also an anomalous cost at level 70, and I'm all for leaving that one written in manually using the worth template. I don't know if it's a bug, or just a super-special gambit. 

I'm a template noob, but I went ahead and edited the formulas, and it seems to work fine. It's much easier to edit than to create from scratch. I'm glad you made nice clear documentation. :) -- [[User:Elinnea|Elinnea]] ([[User talk:Elinnea|talk]]) 19:14, 20 March 2012 (EDT)

:Hey! I saw your edits and they look very nice. Good work! :)
:I agree about manually adding that level 70 gambit, but I'd like to wait till the uptime is over, to see if they "fixed" it or if it's intended :)
: -- [[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 03:53, 21 March 2012 (EDT)

== Maps ==
Hey there. I found that [[:File:Enedwaith map.jpg]] should be updated: it now has a cute little grey dragon icon in the mountains to the East (that's where Draigoch's Lair is located). I have a map but don't dare to upload it over your brilliant maps. Can you take care of this? Also, you've got mail. ''': )''' --[[User:Ravanel|Ravanel]] ([[User talk:Ravanel|talk]]) 14:32, 10 November 2011 (EST)
:Oh, totally forgot about that. I'll try to see what I can do about it soon :) --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 15:50, 6 December 2011 (EST)
::You're a hero! ''': )''' --[[User:Ravanel|Ravanel]] ([[User talk:Ravanel|talk]]) 16:46, 6 December 2011 (EST)
:::Done! Btw, you can write stubs like this :) <pre>{{Stub/Image|New version needed with Draigoch icon.}}</pre>  --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 07:29, 8 December 2011 (EST)
::::I preferred adressing the center of all map goodness himself. Imagine that someone would see the stub and upload a coordinate unfriendly version - oh no! Thanks for fixing this small matter. (And don't you think that dragon looks cute? :D) --[[User:Ravanel|Ravanel]] ([[User talk:Ravanel|talk]]) 08:23, 8 December 2011 (EST)
::::: *ahem* I appreciate your compliments, Dear Lady. But I wanted to make a comment about [https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php?title=File%3AEnedwaith_map.jpg&action=historysubmit&diff=377311&oldid=341465 this unworthy matter] which is probably below Her dignity. Therefore I apologize! (Yeah, it is :p) --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 18:23, 8 December 2011 (EST)

== Create new item ==
I noticed Create new item doesn't include the boilerplate text anymore. Posting [[Talk:Boilerplate:Item|here]] did not help, so I'm turning to you in the hope that you got any ideas. --[[User:Ravanel|Ravanel]] ([[User talk:Ravanel|talk]]) 14:28, 5 December 2011 (EST)
:Thanks for trying to help, I really have no idea how that Create new item all of a sudden started to work again. If you have a chance, can you provide me with an answer to the above post "Maps"? Hope all is going well. --[[User:Ravanel|Ravanel]] ([[User talk:Ravanel|talk]]) 12:36, 6 December 2011 (EST)

== Rep Items ==
{{:User:EoD/RepItems}}
: Oh, nice, thanks! For the {{Reward|Cracked Dwarf Tablet}}, did the name changed since my yesterday night screenshot? It was named "Cracked Dwarf Tablet". --[[User:Goingbald|Goingbald]] ([[User talk:Goingbald|talk]]) 23:08, 14 December 2011 (EST)

:: I checked my screenshot twice and on mine it has a different name. That's a bit odd. Let's give turbine a few or so in order to find one name ;) --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 20:31, 16 December 2011 (EST)

== Item Tooltip vs Reward ==
# Last Sunday, I tried to modify the [[Template:Item Tooltip]] to generate automatically a Set Information section but didn't succeed as expected; when the section was showing correctly, it was also showing in the barter table underneath (ex.: [[Item:Trickster's Gauntlets]]) that is using the Reward template, do you have an idea how to solve that? I tried too many times and triggered a warning, you know where/what is the mentioned test-wiki?
# About the Reward template, could we add a "plural" parameter in Item Tooltip where to type how should be written the plural of the item name, then Reward could detect if there is an amount and display instead this "plural" parameter?
Thanks for any feedback! :) --[[User:Goingbald|Goingbald]] ([[User talk:Goingbald|talk]]) 23:08, 14 December 2011 (EST)

: Re: #2, this has been requested before - I also would like to see this added in somehow or another. [[User:Sethladan|Sethladan]] 02:07, 15 December 2011 (EST)
::For the first one, I tried this on test-wiki and got it almost working. The only problem was that {{t|Reward}} starting behaving funny when used in tables. There is a workaround you could use to fix it, but obviously its better not to have the issue in the first place. [[User:Amphoras|Amphoras]] ([[User talk:Amphoras|<span class="tttemplatelink">talk</span><span style="display:none;">Talk to me!</span>]]) 09:37, 15 December 2011 (EST)
:::Regarding reward-in-tables. There is a fixed version on testwiki which is waiting for Seth's approval ;)
::: #2 - we could add a name_plural parameter to the item_tooltip which could be used by "reward". Anyone want to do this? --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 20:33, 16 December 2011 (EST)
:::: I'd like to make it work but don't understand that "Reward" template, almost nothing in it, what is this mode imlink? What about point 1? --[[User:Goingbald|Goingbald]] ([[User talk:Goingbald|talk]]) 00:04, 17 December 2011 (EST)
::::: {{tlink|Reward}} is just a short version of an item page's imlink mode: <nowiki>{{:Item:Cloak of Hwîn|mode=imlink}}</nowiki> . We have 3 different "modes" (see [https://testwiki.skunark.net/index.php/Template:New here] for further details) which will link/display the item in different ways.
::::: #1 - it seems like Amphoras knows what the problem is, maybe he can explain it to us? --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 10:01, 17 December 2011 (EST)
::::::Problem with 1. was that the set information section was outside the {{t|Tooltip}} template. This means it gets included to matter what. Adding an if check to not show it when a mode is selected stops it showing up with {{t|Reward}}. This means it all shows up fine on the item pages. The problem is that it adds the equivalent of a line break after {{t|Reward}}. This affects the layout in tables. Normally, you would set the table up like
<pre>
|-
| 1st Column || 2nd Column || 3rd Column
|-
</pre>
::::::Or equivalently you can use
<pre>
|-
| 1st Column
| 2nd Column
| 3rd Column
|-
</pre>
::::::As the second layout has a line break after each column, it only has one | compared to two in the first case. As {{t|Reward}} is adding an "extra line break" tables would need to become
<pre>
|-
| 1st Column | 2nd Column | 3rd Column
|-
</pre>
::::::Its not really that big a deal as long as people know, and it gets sorted if the change is made. [[User:Amphoras|Amphoras]] ([[User talk:Amphoras|<span class="tttemplatelink">talk</span><span style="display:none;">Talk to me!</span>]]) 11:45, 17 December 2011 (EST)
::::: Have been pretty busy in real life and not following what's up here, but just a quick note to say that both the || and | layouts should work when beginning cells on new lines, so I'm not sure if it's a line-break issue:
<pre>
{| border=1px
|-
|| Row 1 Cell 1
|| Row 1 Cell 2
|| Row 1 Cell 3
|-
| Row 2 Cell 1
| Row 2 Cell 2
| Row 2 Cell 3
|}</pre>
::::: displays perfectly fine to me. Of course, no items or Reward in there, so maybe it's a moot point. Cheers. :-P [[User:Sethladan|Sethladan]] 13:56, 17 December 2011 (EST)
Yeah Seth, that does work as well. The main point was that
<pre>
|-
| 1st Column | 2nd Column | 3rd Column
|-
</pre>
normally doesn't work, but with the changes to Reward, it now does, and
<pre>
|-
| 1st Column || 2nd Column || 3rd Column
|-
</pre>
doesn't work any more.

On point 2 of adding plurals to {{t|Reward}}, I just added something to do that there. If you put <nowiki>{{Reward|Medallion|3|plural=Medallions}}</nowiki> it now shows Medallions instead of Medallion. You can do that with any item now, even ones where the plural is not just adding an s to the end of the word. [[User:Amphoras|Amphoras]] ([[User talk:Amphoras|<span class="tttemplatelink">talk</span><span style="display:none;">Talk to me!</span>]]) 15:40, 18 December 2011 (EST)
: Is it possible to have the "plural" parameter in the [[Template:Item Tooltip]] instead, and nothing would change for Reward, if any number is specified <> 1, then "plural" would be fetched instead of "name" in "Item Tooltip"? And in "Reward", have an option to not have the number stacked on icon? Numbers can be really big with marks to barter. --[[User:Goingbald|Goingbald]] ([[User talk:Goingbald|talk]]) 20:20, 18 December 2011 (EST)
:: I also prefer Goingbald's way. We could "default to" an additional "s" and allow to override it with a new name. --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 21:28, 18 December 2011 (EST)
:::You could add it to {{t|Item Tooltip}} instead, but then you rely on it being added to each page before it works for {{t|Reward}}. We also had the goal of reducing the number of parameters being used on the item pages, but that would mean adding another.
:::Defaulting to adding an s doesn't work in quite a few cases eg. doing that to {{Reward|Medallion of the North-men}} would give {{Reward|Medallion of the North-men}}s when it should be {{Reward|Medallion of the North-men|plural=Medallions of the North-men}}.
:::It should also be possible to not have the number stacked on the icon, is that how it shows in-game? [[User:Amphoras|Amphoras]] ([[User talk:Amphoras|<span class="tttemplatelink">talk</span><span style="display:none;">Talk to me!</span>]]) 20:00, 19 December 2011 (EST)

== rollback request ==

Please rollback your changes to [[Wailing Hills Quests]] and [[:Category:Wailing Hills Quests]]. I do not believe they are appropriate. Before you go changing these pages, I would appreciate the opportunity to explain why they should not be changed in this way. In the mean time, please rollback your changes, pending further discussion. [[User:RingTailCat|RingTailCat]] ([[User talk:RingTailCat|talk]]) 10:49, 7 April 2012 (EDT)

:This discussion is getting a bit widespread, let's continue on [[Quest Talk:Evidence of Foulplay]]. --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 13:40, 7 April 2012 (EDT)

== Replies to IRC-questions ==

Sorry that I missed you, was pretty tied up. You asked "Why are we removing the epic category?" and the reply is, I do not. All Book quests are already within Epic, as their parent category. So I am just cleaning up :)

: Makes sense indeed :)

On the one about Ring-lore and 70k ... I have no idea. Sounds horrible but I would not be surprised actually, there are so much of these things in all Turbine games, including Lotro :P<br>-- Zimoon 19:35, 14 April 2012 (EDT)

: I wouldn't be surprised ... --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 19:37, 14 April 2012 (EDT)

== WikiNerds Channel ==
With the Exiles having a new channel for cross-kin friends and the Exiffs channel inhabited by some old ghosts, I thought it would be good to create one especially for wiki researchers instead. I won't be staying in the Exiffs channel myself. So, next time you log your hunter, please:
* /leavechannel Exiffs
* /joinchannel WikiNerds
See you there! --[[User:Ravanel|Ravanel]] ([[User talk:Ravanel|talk]]) 05:03, 14 June 2012 (EDT)

:Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo :( --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD#top|talk]]) 05:41, 20 June 2012 (EDT)

== Are you around to talk about bots... ==

If so, please see: [[Template_talk:Skill#Change_to_be_tooltip]]
:'''[[User:Magill|Wm Magill]]''' - Valamar - OTG/OTC - [[User talk:Magill|talk]] 13:40, 30 June 2013 (EDT)

== Thanks, I responded to your message ==

Thanks, I responded to your message at: [[User talk:Banaticus#Removing duplicate update page]]. [[User:Banaticus|Banaticus]] ([[User talk:Banaticus|talk]]) 17:17, 12 March 2016 (UTC)