User talk:Sethladan

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Gathering Lore-master Skill Values

I found something strange going on with the Raven's skill Distraction. Apparently it is regarded as a Tactical Skill and the tooltip is thus influenced by the Tactical offence (for instance found on all LI staves) of the Lore-master. (Remove your weapons/change your gear around, mouse over it again, and you will see a clear difference!) Take screenshots of only the pet's effect tooltip for the damage value for now, just to be safe. Note also that Hardy Companion now not only changes your pet's level by +1, but also increases your pet's outgoing damage by 2 percent (traits have been changed with RoI).--Ravanel (talk) 07:16, 3 October 2011 (EDT)

Skills Template

Seems to still be something wrong here (sorry). Induction doesn't show up on these pages I recently added: Warding Knowledge, Improved Warding Knowledge and Advanced Warding Knowledge. --Ravanel (talk) 05:51, 8 October 2011 (EDT)

Thanks for catching that! Should be fixed now. :) No apologies necessary, I knew this sort of thing would probably need to be ironed out. Even I can't anticipate every silly combination that Turbine invents. Sethladan 13:14, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
Good to hear there are things that even you cannot foresee. Makes us simple wiki editors feel more at ease among the great souls. Thanks for the fix! --Ravanel (talk) 14:39, 8 October 2011 (EDT)


Can you help me with the new editor interface, especially adding the skill template to the buttons of "Add new"? --EoD (talk) 23:36, 8 November 2011 (EST)

Why did you purge lot of the sidebar talk page? I guess that was an accident? --EoD (talk) 18:37, 9 November 2011 (EST)
Whoops! I was looking at an out-of-date copy of the page when I added my comment, so it zapped everything after your initial post in that thread. Thanks for catching it - totally an accident from editing while still partly asleep. Sethladan 18:44, 9 November 2011 (EST)
You shouldn't sleep in front of your computer :p --EoD (talk) 05:52, 10 November 2011 (EST)

Moving pages

So you said I don't need an admin, but I don't see "move" or "rename" anywhere on the page.... so how do I rename a page, like the Wolf-Wulf issue I found today? -Adelas (talk) 23:25, 10 October 2011 (EDT)

The right to move pages is granted with a higher level of site rights. I am not sure if it comes with editor status or ninja status. Perhaps the remark about 'move it yourself' was directed at me because I was touching those pages as well and could have done it. After all, I think it was I who spelt Wulf incorrectly in the first place. BTW, when you are allow to do moves, Move is an option on the drop-down menu between View history and the search box. For me, that menu contains Move, Protect, and Watch. RingTailCat (talk) 02:16, 11 October 2011 (EDT)
AHA! I was looking everywhere for the move tab; I didn't even think of looking in the dropdown:) -Adelas (talk) 12:32, 11 October 2011 (EDT)
Glad you found it! :) And many apologies if my remark came over as snide - that wasn't the intent towards either of you. I guess I wasn't paying attention to who added the "move" tag, and just saw RTC's name on the history, heh. But, yes, currently anyone with an account can move pages (you need to be an admin to move files, though) - I emphasize currently because I'm hoping to get Lotroadmin to restrict it a little, but that shouldn't affect either of you guys.
As always, more documentation about wiki policies and rights and all are needed, heh. I'll get on it for sure if I ever finish with Skills... :) Sethladan 13:01, 11 October 2011 (EDT)

Summons

Do you mind coming to IRC today/now? (feel free to delete me as a response :p) --EoD (talk) 19:18, 11 October 2011 (EDT)

mode imlink in tables

Heya,
What do you think about my Long List? After a long discussion in #css we found out that there is no "general" solution which works both in tables and outside, that's why I added a new mode. --EoD (talk) 10:35, 12 October 2011 (EDT)

Benediction of the Raven

You fixed this somewhere in the template, if I remember correctly, but I can't find it back (since you said in IRC and didn't have time right then). What parameters do I need to use? (See earlier talk on my talk page.) --Ravanel (talk) 04:42, 15 October 2011 (EDT)

Morning! (I'm still awake from last night, sigh.) It should be "|critical-target" and "|both" for Benediction, I think. If you get a chance to look at Boilerplate:Skill, see if the explanations there are helpful at all; the part for "apply to your target on critcal..." should be near the end of the template. Let me know if my explanation is still bad, heheh. :) Sethladan 05:35, 15 October 2011 (EDT)
I figured it out, thanks! I wouldn't know how to put it better, either. One small thing though. If you look at the Benediction of the Raven page for an example, there should be a space in between the Power Cost and the "Apply to target..." part (compare with File:Benediction of the Raven Example.jpg). Any chance you know how to fix that? --Ravanel (talk) 06:27, 16 October 2011 (EDT)
Will take another look at this today. I know there were some skills with the space between "Cost:" and "Apply to target on critical:" and other skills didn't have the space. Chances are it's just Turbine being dumb again, so I'll figure out which way it should be, heh. Thanks again for the feedback! Sethladan 11:31, 16 October 2011 (EDT)
Power cost has always been placed separately, so I am sure this should be the proper way here as well. As for Turbine's intellect... I don't even know why they added this text to this skill in the first place, since the skill doesn't even deal damage (so how can you critical hit on it?). It only confuses people more (like me, until I tested in-game and found nothing has changed and Dizzy is still applied, regardless of having used Benediction of the Raven or not). --Ravanel (talk) 04:20, 18 October 2011 (EDT)
So I reviewed all my screencaps this morning, but didn't have time to go change things until now. The only "on critical" that I can find directly below the power costs is for Captain skills - Devastating Blow and Pressing Attack (and maybe one more?). Yes, there was so much garbage text added to so many skills. I can't wait to see how much cleaning they do (please please please) during the next update. They must have run out of time and just rushed the descriptions. >.< Anyway, going to fix Skill template now, Benediction should look fine by the time you see this in the morning. :) Sethladan 19:23, 18 October 2011 (EDT)
It does, yay! *hugs* --Ravanel (talk) 11:54, 19 October 2011 (EDT)

Feel free to delete after you read this

So, It's great leaving the chat logged in when I'm afk. I'm putting this up for you and Magill because I saw you chatted about this stuff. Link it to anybody else that also ought to see it.:

  • Your Create Item page.... I broked it. The one from your sandbox works fine for me, but the one on the main page Create_new_item - doesn't work.

That is, I have FF7 with NoScript loaded, and the page comes up fine as though it's going to work, says "Javascript Loaded" and has one text box and one button (Create Page), and then as soon as I type something in there and hit Create Page, it loads the front/home page of the wiki. Hm.
Then, I loaded it up in IE. Now I see TWO buttons, Create Page and Create New Item, each with its own text box. Create Page, as before, sends me to the home page of the wiki. Create New Item goes to the indicated page (eg, http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php?title=omgwtfbbq&createarticle=Create+New+Item) and says (with links) "There is currently no text in this page. You can search for this page title in other pages, or search the related logs." Doesn't give the option to edit, probably because I'm not logged in over there, but it also doesn't insert the boilerplate into a named page like it ought to.
I have JS enabled on IE, so I didn't really broked it... but I think someone did.

  • As for the item sample/explanation boilerplate: you guys covered a lot of stuff that I would have mentioned, but I'll go ahead and mention it anyway :-D
  • The examples are often high-level ones that people aren't familiar with (Although I always click through to the examples anyway).
  • It's not clear which box the examples go with
  • OH LAWDY I have GOT to have explanations in the boilerplate - I don't speak "parameter". Some of them are simple enough to figure out, but others... are they yes/no or is there a set of values that belongs there...
  • If there is a short list of acceptable values, it should be written out. I recently found out, to my astonishment, that some of my kin members don't know the names of all 7 crafting tiers. Level 68, playing since closed beta, completed Westfold and Master of the Guild, and didn't know that.... If THEY don't know, the wiki editors might not know. Thus, list.

To that end.... I made this: User:Adelas/Sandbox-itemboilerplate Don't be too harsh, I spent about 2 hours on it, trying to find appropriate type example items under level 15. I found a LOT of items that weren't made using the boilerplate "add-ons", and some that weren't even made with the boilerplate at all (don't ask me to find them again, I forgot to write them down).

I think the most drastic thing was that I thought that some of the add-on text (especially for barter items) was vague, so I expanded it out. I know it's annoying to have to see multiple options. However, I'm a firm believer in making things idiot-resistant. It may be more of a pain to have to scroll through four versions of the barter thing instead of two, but it'll be way better to have someone come to the wiki, copy the right chunk of code, and create an item page that says EXACTLY what it needs to say, instead of giving them a boilerplate add-on that has some extra lines that say "fill this in if it's relevant and leave it off if not" and then risk having extraneous/inaccurate/confusing info. And of course, it's always the goal to have a wiki-reader-only glance at a page and easily understand that this is an item GIVEN to the barter vendor to receive something different (or vice versa).

It's 1 AM yet again and I have accomplished nothing in my house. I need to get up early in teh morning. Sigh. Hope this can be used. -Adelas (talk) 02:15, 16 October 2011 (EDT)

Only time for a quick note, but hopefully I'll catch you on IRC later on today or tomorrow for a more thorough discussion.
First of all, you didn't break anything. If Create new item didn't work, that was my fault, hahah. Apparently the designer of that extension and I were thinking along the same lines when we wrote our code, and I wasn't paying attention to what she'd done. I can fix this pretty quickly, but wanted also to point out that my sandbox is the one to check out. Create new item shouldn't be affected (except for the goof that you discovered) by my experimentation and should still work (or not) as it has been.
Regarding your proposed boilerplate changes: Brilliant. The only suggestion I would make would be to split the top section ("Clean Copy") into two code blocks, one with the comments and one without. That would let people just copy and paste the code from the "clean" block and not have to delete all the extra info. Take a look at Boilerplate:Skill for an example. Otherwise, I am 100% behind the changes you're suggesting, and look forward to discussing more when I don't have a concert to run to, hahah. Great work! Sethladan 11:40, 16 October 2011 (EDT)


FYI, we started gabbing a lot on the talk page for my sample filled-in-boilerplate, which was smart of Magill because that keeps it central. I wish there was a way to flag someone here like it does on Facebook, where if I mention someone like User:Sethladan on another page, it says "you have a message", the same way it does when I write here on your user talk page. But, alas. Anyhow, User_talk:Adelas/Sandbox-itemboilerplate LOTS of clarification on what I intended, because I was (or at least Magill felt I was) unclear on what exactly I meant for my sample replacement filled-in boilerplate to be used for. -Adelas (talk) 01:22, 17 October 2011 (EDT)

Disabled tooltips

Didn't you disable tooltips on Template:Lootbox once? Has this been re-enabled by chance or intentionally? I did some changes to MediaWiki:Lord of the tooltips.js but I'm (almost) sure that those are not related to that. --EoD (talk) 10:39, 18 October 2011 (EDT)

I don't remember what I did months ago regarding Lootboxes, but I suspect I was trying to disable pop-ups whenever an item was called with default mode. Could that have been changed at some point when code was being moved back and forth from Testwiki? Sethladan 19:19, 18 October 2011 (EDT)
Maybe? The syntax on how to disable it, is written on the lord of tooltips. It's something like [[Item:Cloak of Hwîn|<span class="disablett">Cloak of Hwîn</span>]] and it's still working. --EoD (talk) 08:26, 19 October 2011 (EDT)
Thanks for reminding me about "disablett." Do you think this change to {{Tooltip}} would be okay? You can check the result on User:Sethladan/Sandbox3. If the item is being called in default mode, it should not display any popup anyway, right? (Yes, I know no Item would call Tooltip directly, but I didn't want to sandbox two templates at the same time. :-P) Sethladan 13:36, 19 October 2011 (EDT)

Tables

Is it possible for a table to be both sortable and have the alternating rows style? The table at Hunter_Skills#Wayfaring seems quite out of place in the rest of the page.

In a broader question, is there information about table styles anywhere? I did find Help:Editing, which is linked from the main Help page. Do you know if it's up-to-date? I've been making do just by copying tables that already exist here and there, but at some point it'd be nice to actually understand what I'm doing. -- Elinnea (talk) 16:00, 18 October 2011 (EDT)

Check out... User:Magill/Sandbox-6#Wiki -- there are pointers to the main WIKI's table documentation.
In my experience, you can have both alternating and sortable until you sort the table -- then the alternating colors are randomized.
The page is generated with colored lines, and then the Javascript sorts those lines. In reality, I would guess that 90% of the users will never sort the table, and so will only see the Alternating colors
If you want to see one way of "sort of" doing it see: User:Magill#Toons ... the colors follow the sort, but don't alternate Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC (talk) 18:55, 18 October 2011 (EDT)
I know, I know, I know, we need documentation of this stuff badly. You (Elin) did great work with the class skill pages today, though, cutting out all the background styling and just using the table class. You can do the same with Template:Hunter-wayfaring (I'm not entirely sure why this needs to be split out and transcluded onto only two pages) by replacing "stocktable" with "altRowsMed" (caps are important). As Magill said, resorting the table can make it look kinda funny, but it's a little less "out of place" that way.
Help:Editing is still accurate in that it's not giving you wrong information, but it's certainly out of date as far as missing very useful table classes. (not to mention being ridiculously obtuse and generally WTF-inducing - at least for me). Hope this helps somewhat! If you'd like to go directly to the source, table styles are declared on MediaWiki:Common.css. Do a search for "altRows" and you'll find some of the definitions. There are a few more that Goingbald and I added near the very end, as well, for alignment purposes. Sethladan 19:07, 18 October 2011 (EDT)
Heh, I think everything everywhere needs documentation badly. It's not all your fault. ;) Those links are helpful - I might do some strolling through them. (By the way, Magill, I've been reading through some of the Help pages that are filling up your sandboxes, and I've learned a lot already. I think that's a helpful project.) I'm actually not sure why the Wayfaring table needs to be sortable, since it all fits in one screen, or why it has to be an include. I hate to undo somebody else's work though. --Elinnea (talk) 19:34, 18 October 2011 (EDT)
Oh, don't worry. Everything's my fault. That's why I stick my nose into everyone's business and "put my grubby fingers all over" everything. :) Magill has certainly been doing a thorough job of grabbing information that he comes across, though, wow! Sethladan 19:41, 18 October 2011 (EDT)
Wayfaring became transcluded because it should be identical in at least two locations (I forget if there is actually a third reference I didn't find when I did it) and the two got out of Sync.... and because of the classic problem -- nobody knows where everything is that needs to be updated when encountering a series of massive changes such as happened to all classes with ROI.... especially when there is duplicate information that really should be identical.
As for sorting... it's one of those things... I learned how to do it and felt it should be "everywhere" :) ... I also frequently find myself looking for information which is not "in its obvious location" because the base table is sorted by a different class. Wafaring is one in particular where the base table is in level order, but you frequently want it by location (or in this case "ability") Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC (talk) 17:23, 19 October 2011 (EDT)

Incorrect Skill Template

File:(Improved) Burning Embers Example.jpg
Hey Seth. Looks like recent changes to the skill template affected the Lore-master skills Burning Embers and Improved Burning Embers in an undesirable way. And since I now know which door to knock upon... ;) Could you fix this? Please compare the skill pages of the wiki with the recent in-game screenshots of the skills posted to the right and look at the order of the green text (don't mind the difference in numbers, those are affected by legacies). I might stumble into more messed up skills while I'm on my "RoI update-check" of the Lore-master skills. If I do, I'll let you know here. --Ravanel (talk) 03:35, 20 October 2011 (EDT)

Does this and this fix it? Amphoras (talkTalk to me!) 04:55, 20 October 2011 (EDT)
It does, thanks. *facepalm*. What can I say? "Don't make contributions at 5 am in the morning?" --Ravanel (talk) 05:10, 20 October 2011 (EDT)

Applied on removal

Quick question - is there a skill parameter that adds the text "Applied on removal:" in red? It's the same as the current "ic-removal" but without the in-combat part. -- Elinnea (talk) 18:43, 22 October 2011 (EDT)

Hm, I'm also not getting the "Adds Focus point" line to show up at Improved Focus. Help? -- Elinnea (talk) 18:57, 22 October 2011 (EDT)
A) Nope, but I shall add it posthaste.
B) Argh, the template only recognizes "Focus" or "Fervour," not "Focus point." (That was there before I was, though, heh.) Looking at my own screenshot, there's no number, just "Adds Focus point..." Will adjust that, as well.
Thanks for the catches! Sethladan 19:22, 22 October 2011 (EDT)
You can always change the color of text using the Template:Color, e.g. this is red, This is purple. Use the template on the text that goes in the attrib field: see for instance: Enduring Great Club of Determination or Spear of the Hunter. RingTailCat (talk) 19:33, 22 October 2011 (EDT)
That's true, and it might be better than adding yet another parameter to the template. (And that color template is neat, haven't seen it used before!) The problem is that I'm not sure what the correct color is to use there. I could go find which one is used currently in the Skill template, I suppose. *shrug* -- Elinnea (talk) 19:47, 22 October 2011 (EDT)
A) is done, will add it to the documentation and boilerplate in a second, but want to highlight that "| removal" still uses the "| expiration-duraciton" parameter for its duration. If they need to be split down the road, we'll cross that bridge.
B) Turns out after closer examination that the template is already set up to deal with the Focus point bit on Improved Focus, it just needed to be done in a sort of specific way. Will try to improve the documentation on that, but it should be set for Improved Focus, at least.
Re: RTC's suggestion, definitely a good quick fix solution - there are more than enough empty parameters to use as stand-ins when needed. And, yeah...there are lots of surprise little tools and utilities around here that people create and then never really publicize, heh. I'm guilty of that, too. Sethladan 19:58, 22 October 2011 (EDT)
Ok, thanks for taking care of it. -- Elinnea (talk) 20:05, 22 October 2011 (EDT)
I snarfed Template:Color from wikipedia when I could not find it on this wiki. RingTailCat (talk) 02:17, 23 October 2011 (EDT)

Lists UL versus OL

Just to record the subject somewhere. Today...

  • an unordered list (UL) is indented just a notch (in my opinion it is good) but
  1. a numbered list is indented way more, which makes the result to look bad.

And, 'no', I have not made this up, they are just a plain * and # ;)
I cannot see why unordered lists should be any different from ordered lists, indentation-wise.
Obnoxious, I think it was you who said that, but 'yes', I believe in looks making people to like things. Or rather, as long as somebody is not in love any flaw or distraction appalls people, whether they want to believe how easily that happens or not. These lists are perhaps not as bad as a ketchup stain at your white silk shirt but if it can be improved, why not?

I tried to find which CSS it could be but failed. I guess you spot it it right away, right? Please, just align them. And perhaps, just to make list numbers to not "float into" quest levels etc., I wonder if a more humble font or somewhat lesser font size would help, but cannot say beforehand. Cheers -- Zimoon (talk) 02:50, 24 October 2011 (EDT)

I just tried that on wikipedia with the same result. A bullet is less indented than a number. Therefore I guess it's less intended by design.
Zimoon, you can always change the indentation from your personal stylesheet file. See here for further information. --EoD (talk) 07:55, 24 October 2011 (EDT)
I *know* that, but I am not think just of myself but about the general case. -- Zimoon (talk) 11:41, 24 October 2011 (EDT)
I have also found this annoying... always have to put an extra ":" infront of "*" to get things to "almost" line up.
I doubt this is a CSS problem as such... but rather a W3 issue (ww.w3.org). (It could also be a WIKI issue of arbitrary-ness.) I would have to do a lot of research to find which specific spec is responsible and then how that spec is implemented on each different browser. Furthermore, I am too many years removed from the standards process to even know if the various elements have any defined indentation in the spec, what kind of aberrant behavior is "grandfathered," etc. CSS were implemented to enable the individual web designer to "determine" how their particular page would look... except that there is no guarantee that any particular CSS will work "as expected' in each and every browser... especially as one gets more esoteric in usage. (And for browsers other than Safari and Crome -- the only two browsers I know which implement Webkit. I don't think that either FF or IE ever got around to implementing it.)
It would be interesting to run the various WIKI CSS pages and such through both the W3 validator (http://validator.w3.org/) and the CSS validator (http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/) ... to see how close (if at all) they come to conforming to one of the various standards. (HTML-5, being the current one).

Typical default display properties for UL and OL are : 

ul {
display: block;
list-style-type: disc;
-webkit-margin-before: 1em;
-webkit-margin-after: 1em;
margin-start: 0;
-webkit-margin-end: 0;
padding-start: 40px; }

http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html-markup-20110113/ul.html 

ol {
display: block;
list-style-type: decimal;
-webkit-margin-before: 1em;
-webkit-margin-after: 1em;
margin-start: 0;
-webkit-margin-end: 0;
padding-start: 40px; }

http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html-markup-20110113/ol.html

So, for what it's worth... in MediaWiki:Lotro.css both UL and OL are defined as: 

ul {
  line-height:         1.5em;
  list-style-type:     square;
  margin:              .3em 0 0 1.5em;
  padding:             0;
  list-style-image:    url( http://www.lotro-wiki.com/images/a/a5/Bullet_orange_right_arrow.png );
}

ol {
  line-height:         1.5em;
  margin:              .3em 0 0 3.2em;
  padding:             0;
  list-style-image:    none;
}

One would guess that changing the 3.2 to 1.5 would make things line up. (Of course the image defined is never seen so these my not be the correct definitions, or they are overridden someplace else.) Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC (talk) 14:39, 24 October 2011 (EDT)

I know I've promised several times to look into this, so thank you for the re-prompting. When I test <ul>s and <ol>s in a plain HTML file (outside of Mediawiki), the indentation is identical between the two on Google Chrome and seems closest to indentation level that we see here for ordered (number) lists. That said, when I look more closely at Zimoon's example at the beginning of this section, the bullet isn't actually indented at all, or barely; it just has a little bit of padding to either side of the "disc."
This leads me to believe that Mediawiki has intentionally styled unordered lists to have no(?) indentation. Since I can't find any declarations to this effect in MediaWiki:Common.css (As far as I know, MediaWiki:Lotro.css doesn't do anything, but I could be wrong there.), I'm further inclined to suspect this is set as default by the software itself (which would make sense since EoD reported the same differences on Wikipedia.
A little experimenting has yielded the following results. Being mindful of Magill's comments about browsers displaying things differently, please take a look at the table below and see how appealing (or not) the alignments are.
Text aligned
  1. This is item 1
  2. This is item 2
  3. This is item 3
  4. This is item 4
  • This is item 1
  • This is item 2
  • This is item 3
  • This is item 4
List Aligned
  1. This is item 1
  2. This is item 2
  3. This is item 3
  4. This is item 4
  • This is item 1
  • This is item 2
  • This is item 3
  • This is item 4
For me, the "T"s in the left column line up perfectly while the numbers and bullets have slightly different perceived indentations. On the right, the margins are explicitly set to be identical, and the left edge of the numbers and the bullets appear to start at the same places; the numbers being a little wider means the text is uneven, however.
Note that both of these methods use the list-style-position style declaration. It may be possible to exert more control over the space between the bullet/number and the text without this, but I'm too sleepy to try anything further at this time. Comment and experiment as you will, but it's a busy week for me so don't expect too much more of this degree of example-ing. :D Sethladan 00:00, 25 October 2011 (EDT)
IMHO both examples are fine, possibly (slanting my head and screwing up my eyes) the leftmost is better but then only if the two styles appear in the same paragraph so they can be compared, cuz in that case the difference is more noticeable in the rightmost list. But that is really nitpicking I believe.
I am well aware of the differences between browsers and Gandalf knows what, have worked with such crap too, a long time ago. Mostly it ain't neither W3C nor Wikimedia but browser that are to blame but engineers at different browser vendors. And then different sites or style-providers try their best to overcome these differences (shortcomings), much as Magill refers to and what I found while browsing on the topic before I posted.
Mainly it all boils down to perception and trying to provide visitors with best of appearance. For so many templates and other elements I find that you guys have done a marvelous job on just that, make it look perfect and appealing, but then often blew it with a mix of styles in, chiefly, quest-chains -- and I won't go there again ;)
Don't let the busy week kill you, looking forward to chat away nonsensically again -- Zimoon (talk) 03:04, 25 October 2011 (EDT)

One more Skills template note

The line for "cyan-duration" is showing up as white rather than dark green, and missing the "Duration:" text over at Improved Seeking Blade. -- Elinnea (talk) 17:32, 24 October 2011 (EDT)

Should be fixed now - you're my favorite bug-catcher! :) Typo on my part: "darkgreeen" instead of "darkgreen," and totally overlooked the "Duration: " bit. Sethladan 20:01, 24 October 2011 (EDT)

One more one more note, I guess. I noticed that the Rune-keeper skills use the require line to add in the Attunement requirement, but it comes out in green instead of yellow. Is there any way for the template to notice the attunement template filling that line and make the text yellow instead of green? An example is at Improved Sustaining Bolt (which is kind of a funky skill tooltip in other ways too). -- Elinnea (talk) 19:49, 25 October 2011 (EDT)

Urgh, and Improved Rousing Words puts the attunement requirement below the Channelled Skill note instead of above it, where it wants to be. And the "Every 1 second" adds an extra 's' at the end since in every other case it would be plural. I tried making an Improved Prelude to Hope skill but was defeated by a random white-ish line it decided to put in the middle of everything. I think these Rune-keeper skills might be worse than the Minstrel ones. Or maybe it's just too late at night. Maybe it'll all make sense in the morning. >.< -- Elinnea (talk) 23:35, 25 October 2011 (EDT)
Now I'm starting to get really self-conscious about scrawling all over your talk page, but over at Shield Tactics I couldn't get the gambit requirement to show up without also putting text in one of the other categories in that section (attune, channeledskill, toggle, critical-target). There's also a "Clears All Gambits" line beneath that, which could either be its own parameter or just an added line to the requirement like I did there. I'll just, uh, keep putting stuff I notice here and you can think about it whenever you can. No rush or anything. >.>
I suppose I could put some of these things on the template talk page instead. Hmm. -- Elinnea (talk) 11:52, 27 October 2011 (EDT)
No self-consciousness needed! You can feel free to post here or on Template talk:Skill - it's usually the guy who made the last major revision that's accountable for cleaning up his mess, heh. I finally have a day to myself, so I'll take a look at all these and see what can be done. :) Sethladan 11:34, 28 October 2011 (EDT)

Most of this should be fixed now:

  • "Requires:" will now appear if on its own (typo on my part).
  • "Requires:" line will be the same color as "Attunes" if main-category is set to "Rune-keeper".
  • Channeled Skill now appears below "Requires:" in all cases.
  • Attrib-every should now display "Every 1 Second" if it's set to 1, and with "Every x Seconds" if set to any number higher.

Still missing some fine tuning for the "funky skill tooltip (Improved Sustaining Bolt). Also tried to make the "Requires:" line display things differently depending on what's in there, but my favorite weapon to this end (#titleparts) doesn't work when you're calling templates in the text. Alas. For Warden skills, it might be less mess to just manually add " <br /> Clears All Gambits" after the requirement instead of adding yet another parameter. Sethladan 15:17, 28 October 2011 (EDT)

(Trait) vs. (trait)

So many things to come pester you about! ;D Is there a prescribed preference between pages being named "Blah blah blah (trait)" or "Blah blah blah (Trait)"? Looking through Category:Class Traits it seems as if some classes consistently use lower case, some consistently use upper case, and some use a mix. I've lately been changing pages in favor of the upper case, but it'd be nice to know if anyone's decided an official position on the question. -- Elinnea (talk) 21:44, 25 October 2011 (EDT)

My preference is for upper-case parenteticals (Trait, Level, etc.) but I don't believe there's currently an official standard specific to that. Closest thing I can come up with is the "title case," which is what we should be using for article titles, and that would mean most meaningful words should be cap'ped whether or not they're in parentheses. That will eventually make it into our style guidelines for sure, though. Sethladan 22:12, 25 October 2011 (EDT)
My two cents would be: it depends but most often upper case. However...
It should definitely be upper case for names or words that may be considered names in a context. I guess Deed, Trait, Skill, etc., may go into that group since they are kind of name of a category (not wiki-category :P). And the few leftovers could get them into the line of ducks and use only capitals. I guess it is better to have one rule to tame them all than "it depends" ;) -- Zimoon (talk) 05:19, 26 October 2011 (EDT)
I prefer capitals as well. Capitals are used everywhere for Creatures. They are used mostly in majority for Items and Skills. Only Traits are really inconsistent. Feel free to continue your quest for replacing (trait) by (Trait). It would be best if we could write down somewhere in "general lotro-wiki style rules" or something of the likes that we want capitals everywhere in this case (and explain as well what the hell "parenteticals" are, for those less enlightened :-P). --Ravanel (talk) 05:50, 27 October 2011 (EDT)
Okay then, the campaign against lower-case t shall be continued. -- Elinnea (talk) 10:41, 27 October 2011 (EDT)

I forgot who ACTUALLY changed it, but... (Item Tooltip)

When we were in irc chat, we had someone alter the tooltip so that it didn't show the "type". (I remember having a big discussion about it with you, but not who actually made the change, so if you can't fix it, please make sure to tag whoever can.) But we did it wrong!

  • If the type is filled in, but slot is blank, then the type should appear on the tooltip.
  • If the slot is filled in, but the type is blank, then the slot should appear on the tooltip.

Now, previously, the way the thing worked was, if they were both filled in, they both appeared on the tooltip. What we NEED to have happen is:

  • If they are both filled in, the system needs to check....
  • If the slot is chest, back, legs, hands (gloves), feet (shoes), or head (hat) the type should appear on the tooltip, and the slot should NOT appear.
  • If the slot is ear, wrist, finger (?is ring on finger or hand?), neck, or pocket, the SLOT should appear on the tooltip, and the type should NOT appear.

This allows us to have the form auto-fill the category by both type and slot, but doesn't show the slot on armour items, and doesn't show "jewellery" on those items.
Ping me if you have any questions. I'll be happy to copy this to whomever needs to read it, I just forgot who it was. Zim maybe? -Adelas (talk) 20:45, 26 October 2011 (EDT)

Edited to add: Also, how do we get that font changed to Verdana?
Took a stab at it, although it seems like it was EoD who made the first attempt. Feel free to feedback if it's working or needs more tweaking. Also set the default font for tooltips (currently this only means Effect and Item, I think) to be Verdana. Hope this looks as expected! Sethladan 19:26, 28 October 2011 (EDT)
I tried to do what I thought was requested. But the above request sounds like we should use {{{type|{{{slot|}}}}}} instead of separate checks for slot and type? This would save some coding (and a maybe a parameter). --EoD (talk) 07:45, 29 October 2011 (EDT)
Could have been my fault; I think it was me who relayed the original request to you. I'm trying to remember why {{{slot|{{{type}}}}}} or {{{type|{{{slot|}}} wouldn't work, and not really coming up with a clear answer. We may have to play with simplifying that when we roll out the new generation of item templates (whenever that happens to be, and I know you're busy!) because the coding of {{Item Tooltip}} is a nightmare, anyway. :-P Sethladan 11:25, 29 October 2011 (EDT)
Edit: Just read Adelas' original post immediately above, and I guess we do need to check what's in Slot and Type because some might use Type = Jewellery, which shouldn't be displayed. That means I'm going to have to look at the categorization part, too, to make sure that pieces aren't double categorized as "Neck" and "Jewellery..." Sethladan 11:28, 29 October 2011 (EDT)

Little Annoyances

And I don't actually mean the annoyance of figuring out all the challenging new and improved tooltips... Have you perchance looked at the current version of the trait Little Annoyances? In the game the trait tooltip basically includes the entire skill tooltip for Quite a Snag and I can't for the life of me figure out what to do with it. I could get it all in using a bunch of color tags and &nbsp all over the place, I suppose. Or I could just include a link to the skill and give up the ideal of making the tooltip match the game. Do you have any other ideas (or anyone else who happens to read this)? -- Elinnea (talk) 00:15, 2 November 2011 (EDT)

P.S. The same is true for Practiced Bluff and Dealings Done.

Yeah, all the legendary traits (or those that enable/modify skills, at least) have some kind of extra skill info on them now. I'd been putting off dealing with that until I'd finished with Skills, heh. As I have no interest in filling the trait template with half of the parameters we use for skills...I'm thinking it might be possible to use some kind of transclusion effect to drag in the necessary info. Going to have to think about that, but in the meantime, you can feel free to ignore that part or add the extra lines using {{color}} - whichever you prefer. ;) Sethladan 10:56, 2 November 2011 (EDT)
That's strange, I hadn't seen it on any of the other Legendary Traits I'd checked yet. Well, given those choices, the ignoring option is sounding pretty nice... ;) I'll put in something as a placeholder for now. -- Elinnea (talk) 11:06, 2 November 2011 (EDT)
Er, never mind that bit about the legendary traits, I got confused. Most of them are good about just putting the skill tooltip side-by-side with the trait tooltip. Carry on! :D Sethladan 11:14, 2 November 2011 (EDT)
Please check Template talk:Item Tooltip for recent problem. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by RingTailCat (Contribs • User Talk) at 2011.11.22.

Move/delete/template

Hiya. Could you please delete Way of the Smiths for me? The Way of Smiths is the proper name for the area. Also, do you know why the Silvertine Lodes template is on auto-collapse when all the other Moria region templates are not? --Varghedin (talk) 04:38, 26 November 2011 (EST)

Noticed the question about auto-collapse. I have also noticed that some boxes collapse, they do that if more than 3 headers (or was it boxes?) are displayed at the same page. We should make sure no such boxes override if an editor set collapse=no.
What caught my eyes was you mention Silvertine Lodes, that is NOT a region but an area within the region of Moria. And yes, yes, we all know that Moria is problematic. And we know that the Area template does not meet our needs, see it talk page. In other words, we are working on it. Zimoon (talk) 06:41, 26 November 2011 (EST)
Thanks for looking into that, Z. On my iPad and didn't want to go digging that much. :) Looks like Lotroadmin took care of Way of the Smiths, too. Cheers! Sethladan 06:44, 26 November 2011 (EST)
NP, Silvertine was for Varghedin, but the template, I think that one was the Tavern template, region should work. Zimoon (talk) 06:55, 26 November 2011 (EST)
Thanks. If you look at the aforementioned The Way of Smiths, you'll see what I mean about the templates at the bottom. The Silvertine Lodes one collapses, but the Redhorn Lodes one does not. It's the same on all articles using the Silvertine template. --Varghedin (talk) 11:59, 26 November 2011 (EST)

Item testing in silence, are you?

P --Zimoon (talk) 15:54, 5 December 2011 (EST)
Found the issue, trying to fix it. :-P The onlyincludes are getting read by the create new item tool, so it's only grabbing the text inside the "Clean Copy" section instead of the whole boilerplate. Sethladan 15:55, 5 December 2011 (EST)

Brainstorming

An ambitious page! Quote: "Rav and Fin have identified a lot of potential ways to piece together/tease apart the underlying mob statistics that are summarized for the Knowledge of the Lore-master inspects:

  • Skirmish soldiers can be inspected in housing neighborhoods while dueling
  • Pets and heralds can be inspected while dueling
  • I know there were other points, but escaping me now."

To which I can add: the only other thing we can think of is to feed Lore-master pets different versions of pet food and to gradually build up armour/mitigations of your skirmish soldiers in between inspects. It will still be (close to) impossible to find the numbers, but hey, we know you like a challenge. ^^ --Ravanel (talk) 16:37, 6 December 2011 (EST)

Mwahahaha. You understand me so well. :) Sethladan 16:40, 6 December 2011 (EST)

Update: since pets inherit the finesse rating of their owner and finesse show up on Lore-master inspects since update 5, we might be able to crack what the descriptions in the inspects mean! It's really easy to make changes to your own finesse rating by swapping around some gear. Exciting! --Ravanel (talk) 10:22, 27 December 2011 (EST)

Exciting indeed! Thanks for keeping me updated. :) I'm so out of touch recently with the holidays. Trying to keep up with patrolling and minor things when I can...not much progress on the major projects and research, heheh. Sethladan 23:24, 28 December 2011 (EST)

Another update: moebius92 (Lore-master) on the Lotro forums did go a huge way to figure some mitigation stuff out. He used his bear in skirmishes of different levels. I think you'd be excited to read what he wrote: [1] & [2]. --Ravanel (talk) 06:27, 31 December 2011 (EST)

Changing an item name

Item:Catchpole's Gaunlets is misspelled, and I don't really know how to rename a page? Any hints/a change would be very much appreciated, because misspellings tend to make me twitchy. XD Thanks in advance! Maegden (talk) 01:17, 7 December 2011 (EST)

Replying briefly as Seth is probably asleep in his time zone. Add the Move template to the faulty page and an editor or somebody who sees it can do the "move" whenever, usually within 24 hours. Example: {{Move|Correct Name}}, the template is just {{Move|}} and then just the new name.
Zimoon (talk) 03:08, 7 December 2011 (EST)
Aha! Thank you! Maegden (talk) 10:52, 7 December 2011 (EST)
Actually I could do it myself, but when an "admin" does it he can decide to avoid creating a redirect page, which I cannot ;) Zimoon (talk) 12:17, 7 December 2011 (EST)
Thamks for keeping an eye on my talk while I was away, Z, heheh.
All users can move pages (but not files) through the little arrow near the search bar in the top right - you'll also find watch/unwatch here and others depending on your user privs. You can either flag it for moving as Zimoon suggested, or move it yourself and then flag the automatically-created redirect page with {{Delete Page}}. Spelling errors make me squirm, too, so thanks for looking out for my mental health. I'll go ahead and do Catchpole's now. :) Sethladan 21:12, 7 December 2011 (EST)

Location Nav-boxes, Question

I just wanted to know if you remember if anything was said or decided on how to proceed with using the more local navigation boxes. I mean for example Archet Dale, Combe, and Staddle. Only Archet Dale has its own finer-scale map, the latter two do not and these boxes are quite empty in my humble opinion (the Staddle-box is disabled at the moment).

I have a vague memory about we would use nav-boxes for areas with local maps, I may be wrong. Either way, I wonder if not location nav-boxes is better used for areas and settlements (or similar) having their own maps? At least when/if their content otherwise borders to the Void.

Even if the Bree-land nav-box is ridiculously huge, or it was, I wonder what is left if we would empty it for each and every area: 4 settlements, a number of areas, what else? Certain PoI:s? But then which? That is why I wonder if we should find a good balance between region-nav-boxes and when to indeed use area/settlement/similar-nav-boxes.
Zimoon (talk) 09:44, 10 January 2012 (EST)

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

we miss you :( -Adelas

Agreed. Melodrama should be met with an appropriately equal amount from onlookers. ;) I suppose it's some sort of computer science program that is pulling you away, and I wish you well! All the same, you will be very much missed around here. I'll try to help keep skills from falling into utter disarray while you're gone - and maybe I'll have to actually learn to edit a template myself. :o -- Elinnea (talk) 21:18, 12 January 2012 (EST)
Another "noooooooo" in the choir and a more cheerful "get well soon!"
Best wishes on your education and have fun, make it fun, and then more fun, just to make it worth it the exams :P
See you around!
Zimoon (talk) 02:09, 13 January 2012 (EST)
Good luck with your studies. I'm sure you're doing great, as always. You are missed very much now already, although I could not help but grin at the last nerdy goodbye trick. One more thing... please do not forget to return after you're done. This is an order from Queen Ravanel! ;-) --Ravanel (talk) 08:59, 20 January 2012 (EST)
Thanks all for the support! School is going well - an associate's degree in computer science. On break this week, applying for internships and thought I would come cause some trouble around here in the meantime. :) Sethladan 04:09, 27 March 2012 (EDT)
Nice to see you again! Have fun causing troubles :p --EoD (talk) 13:32, 27 March 2012 (EDT)
Hello Seth! Trouble is always welcome from you.... --Lotroadmin (talk) 16:02, 27 March 2012 (EDT)

How do you add new user pages to the Users Category?

Do you do that manually or do you have a script I can borrow... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SChalice (Contribs • User Talk) at 01.23.2012.

I am not sure how quick Seth will reply as he has paused himself for studies, see User:Sethladan. You simply add [[Category:Users]] at the bottom of your page. But since you already have that on your page I guess you ask for somebody else, do you? If not, please elaborate. Zimoon (talk) 17:53, 23 January 2012 (EST)

Moving

Hi Seth, I have rights to move these days, I've just forgotten to look if there are any candidates. I can clean up after myself unless you like to do that :P -- Zimoon (talk) 04:04, 27 March 2012 (EDT)

Haha, okay. I will leave it to you. Congrats on your admin rights! :) I am just wasting time while PC downloads, so I thought I would do sweeping. Not sure what to work on after so long away. Sethladan 04:07, 27 March 2012 (EDT)
Not sure what to work oh, eh? I might have a suggestion. ;)
Just kidding. (I mean, unless you actually want to) Great to hear from you again! -- Elinnea (talk) 11:05, 27 March 2012 (EDT)
Why not beautify the NPC template to a more "modern" look, you have done miracles before :) Zimoon (talk) 18:08, 27 March 2012 (EDT)
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