Template talk:Crafting Information Guide

Topics = Icons

I am not sure I understand the importance of having "Topics: Icons:..." at the crafting info nav-bar. I believe that you (Magill?) first should figure out what is the target group: editors or visitors? In the latter case include only what a visitor expects to look for, nothing else. For editors I think this info is great but it should not pop up where casual visitors walk, unless they stray away from the common path.

For me a nav-bar is kind of "holy" ... it contains the most precious gems, the links that are essential for its purpose. This nav-bar is great in all ways, I would have taken lots of pride in it if I did that the first thing I arrived at this wiki (which actually was for a crafting question I had). However, do not bloat it :)
Zimoon 02:06, 10 January 2012 (EST)

At that point I did not have a complete picture/list of "stuff" hence the "Topics" header -- a convenient way of saying "other."

When I started, the bar was serving a dual purpose, namely the first 3 lines were actually "visitor" oriented, while the "topics" line is "editor" oriented -- especially since the intended user at the moment was just me. I have had a much longer (and more confused) set of lists earlier which are only now just beginning to coalesce to the point where your comment could actually be made !:) I"m not being condescending. Earlier there wasn't even this much organization! Plus "since then" I've already consolidated and "fixed" some of the pages which made some of that confusion, so the list is shrinking, and added a bunch of missing stuff which explained "why" the confusion. Since I started to write this reply, I have found bunches more stuff ... see the end of the note.

-- the basic issue I was addressing was NOT trying to list "holy stuff," but rather the "everything else"-- because the Holy stuff refuses to allow you to find "everything else" which is what got me started with it in the first place. In particular, you can go "down" into many stubs, but you can't get out of them, either vertically or horizontally, all you can do is use you back button and hope that you didn't get there by using "search."

At the moment, the Vocations and Professions lines are because I could NOT find any info about other professions once I was looking at the one which I found; without resorting to the arduous task of "searching." I was looking for something but because I could not guess the name/spelling/whatever the "correct" term was, I spent the better part of an evening stumbling around... before finally realizing, as I mentioned in my sandbox page - "These sections are, for the most part, NOT linked together and must be discovered independently!" This is primarily and especially true once you dive down into any topic. Getting back up, let alone "sideways" in a topic is limited to use of the "back arrow" on the browser.

And just this afternoon as I'm typing this, I stumbled upon {{Tailor Recipe Index}} and {{Item Index}} the latter points to [[Master Item Index]] but that page does not include the "Item Index" nav bar!

For example, You have deleted Crafter interdependence, Dyes, and Inscribe Item from the list of general items. [Inscribe Item]] for whatever reason, is only two lines long. "What links here," shows two links ... both of which simply copied the same two lines into the main body of the text, but left a link into that page. It looks like it was created by accident. and the two references to it (which are only one, but that one is transcluded into the other and "what links here" counts it as two.)

Dye is an interesting case where some weird template somewhere links to it ... Why does Ivar Link to Dye? -- I did finally figure it out, but it took A LOT of hunting to do so. But I digress...

As I'm writing this, I suddenly realized that the "Icon" part of this "Navigation Bar" needs to be on the Help:Crafting page and all of the various Boiler plate pages -- because that is WHEN one goes looking for the information about Icons, for example. Then I also discovered has whole set of Category:Crafting Navigation Templates which are now on th "top level" "Crafting Project" page.

INCLUDING a Top level Navigation bar -- a very important (i.e. useful) resource for Editors -- that I have never seen before! --

Now I'm back on my original quest when I started with the Wiki -- how to document Editing "stuff" (especially fixing up the Help page)! Sigh, there is a "ton" of important stuff that is "lost" (forgotten?) or otherwise buried which was created back in earlier days.

Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC (talk) 22:24, 11 January 2012 (EST)

Indeed! Each time I glance at some help/project pages I get so side-tracked that I give up ;)

The problem, I guess, is that there are too much info about this and about that and it is very hard to piece things together so an editor (new or old alike) can easily find the proper little piece of info without losing time .. and interest. Also, there is a huge difference between a help-page and a hint-n-tips page (on the same topic ofc) and many of our pages are a blended mixed of both making them very tiresome to use. Example: Adding a new NPC more or less requires the submitter to read through the NPC, Image and Categorization pages (but for image it is rather the tips page they need). The same but even the more is true for locations. And I have not even looked at some areas you guys are doing ;)

Great job M, keep it up. Zimoon 02:08, 12 January 2012 (EST)