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my intent is to...

I'm also planning on adding link at the end of the role section of each classes pages, to page where I would first explain all the basic role and routine of play for each roles of each classes with a devellopement about classe's classes trait "specs" diversity in the great line.

The intent here is to ensure that every New player coming here will find a place where all the tips I've given to new players since lotro became F2P will be here an easily available; Maybe make a link for Gameplay Tips in the main page that will redirect to a menu where each classes link with sublink for role will be.

Jeanperson (talk) 20:02, 16 September 2011 (EDT)

Or maybe just to redirect the flame and winter link to sublink into the storm pages instead.

Jeanperson (talk) 20:12, 16 September 2011 (EDT)

I guess this suggestion was a while ago, but I'm thinking along these lines too. I rather favor the idea of having the flame and winter pages redirect to the storm skill, where all three can be shown at once. It would be easier to explain how affinity works if all three versions are together, and easier for the reader to compare the benefits of the different skill forms. The redirects would be important then, in case somebody is searching for the skill by one of its other two names. -- Elinnea (talk) 11:04, 15 May 2012 (EDT)
Oh also, I forgot to mention, my Rune-keeper is not high enough level to have earned Do Not Fall to..., Rune-sign of..., and Improved Rune-sign of... I tried setting my affinity to frost and flame and running back to the class trainer, but the unearned skills still show as their Storm variants. (Clever plan, foiled!) So if anyone reading this does have those skills and could fill in the frost and flame forms, it'd be a help. -- Elinnea (talk) 11:09, 15 May 2012 (EDT)
Nice try with the clever plan, heh. There are some things that we just have to wait and level up in order to collect data for, sigh. Regarding the redirecting, I lean in the opposite direction, toward keeping things distinct as possible, and especially keeping it to only one skill template per page. I can definitely see the value in having the different flavors of a skill (and they really are the same skill) all on one page for ease of reference, but it just seems like it'd be so clunky and information-overload-y.
One thing that might happen down the line also is setting up tooltip popups for skills - the functionality is there (for effects, too), we just need to connect the dots - and that would definitely go haywire with multiple skills per page. Would that sort of serve the same purpose as gathering the different Armour of ... skills and siblings? I know it'd only be available for people with JavaScript enabled, but it might be a nice quick-reference option. Another possibility might be a setup like how we have Tier 1 and Tier 2 creatures, but this also needs JavaScript and doesn't avoid my concern about having multiple skills templates on one page. The template is already long enough; I don't want to fathom editing a page with 3 or 4 back to back.
Definitely open to creative solutions if consolidating the different elemental flavors would really benefit our readers. Maybe keep the skills separate, but transclude the template parts (the part that looks like the in-game tooltip) into a combined "Armour of..." page for ease of reference? Sethladan 16:25, 15 May 2012 (EDT)
Popups for skills, that could be nice. Several other classes would have their own unique issues adapting for that too - champions have one-handed and two-handed versions of some skills, the minstrel has a few skills that change depending on stance, wardens almost have four different skills for each gambit, with all the stance variations. (Yeah, don't go look at the warden skills if you don't like back-to-back skill templates. I couldn't figure out any other way to display them...) These are the places where I've seen multiple skill tooltips sharing a page. I guess it makes sense to keep the future possibilities in mind when making decisions now. If it's important to keep skill pages one-template-to-one-page, all those classes are going to need some other creative ideas on how to present the information in a clear way. The solution might be different for each one.
As for the RK, I would think the simplest way would be to just add a small table with the benefits of all three affinities, copied onto the three pages - perhaps using the numbers from the current level cap? It could go in the tactical information section, ideally with a helpful paragraph from an expert Rune-keeper who could explain when is best to use each one. It would provide an at-a-glance reference for comparison, while leaving them still to their own pages. There aren't a vast number of these affinity skills, anyway. The transclude-all-to-a-central-page idea would be similar, but more elegant, and probably easier to maintain in the future.
Of course, I don't seriously play a Rune-keeper, so I guess I'm not sure what would actually be the most useful for people. -- Elinnea (talk) 19:49, 15 May 2012 (EDT)
As we don't have a name for a 'generic page', I think Elinnea's proposition of pasting the info under the Tactical Information header of each skill page is the best way to go. The problem reminds me a bit of some lore-master skills which had many similar versions. I solved that problem like this:
* Advanced Warding Knowledge (skill pages - several skills are like this)
* Warding Lore (effect page - same effect caused by different skills, used this place to explain)
I think we shouldn't worry too much about this, this will probably solve itself. Much like the captain's brother skills. --Ravanel (talk) 14:45, 16 May 2012 (EDT)

Armor Of [Affinity]

Been thinking about this myself. I think the best way to present this is NOT to link to another separate page, but present the skills as "subsets" inside the skill table. Maybe inside the table we can provide an indented section describing the differences between the skills as affinity changes. I was thinking we could do the same for the "Improved" skills, so that we can provide parity in the skill tables with the number of skills actually seen in-game.

---Perfectapproach (talk) 17:17, 5 October 2012 (EDT)

I see what you're saying, but I'm concerned that the tables are getting a little confused. There's already a lot going on with the text between each of the tables, and adding an indented section cuts through the columns and makes it difficult to scan down.
I know this is still a work in progress, even as I'm typing, but if you're going to do an overhaul of the page's structure, it might be better to test things out in a sandbox, and maybe get some feedback or discussion, before copying it over here. It would help keep the page history a bit cleaner. Currently I try to keep some consistency between the skills pages of all the classes, so making large-ish changes to the format here might also affect the others. -- Elinnea (talk) 21:07, 5 October 2012 (EDT)

Ok, I'll stop.

---Perfectapproach (talk) 08:26, 6 October 2012 (EDT)

I think this may be a good idea, some time ago I was looking at those things and it took me a few to realize what the table tried to say. An "indented" section with the subset sounds good, in the end if the day we want understandability and correct information -- sometimes we must throw in some pragmatism to achieve either of the two ;)
-- Zimoon (talk) 08:53, 6 October 2012 (EDT)
PS: Sorry, I failed to see a later edit when answering. Why not show a demo and we'll discuss the looks of that. Right? -- Zimoon (talk) 08:57, 6 October 2012 (EDT)
Right, I didn't mean that it's all a bad thing. The RK is a complex class, and creativity in figuring out how to present all those skills is a great thing. It's just that when I compare it now to others like Minstrel Skills or Warden Skills (both of which have some complexities too, in various ways) this page is looking quite complicated. Some complication might be necessary, of course, for completion's sake - I just want to make sure the at-a-glance usefulness of the index page is not too much compromised in the process. If you could make a test page someplace, you could defend your design choices, and maybe I would understand better what you're going for. -- Elinnea (talk) 15:13, 6 October 2012 (EDT)

A question on intent

Can someone explain to me the intent behind the box at the top of the RK page (seen here at the right):

Beorning-icon.png Burglar-icon.png Captain-icon.png Champion-icon.png Guardian-icon.png Hunter-icon.png Lore-master-icon.png Minstrel-icon.png Rune-keeper-icon.png Warden-icon.png
Classes Be Bu Ca Ch Gu Hu Lm Mi Rk Wd
Skills Be Bu Ca Ch Gu Hu Lm Mi Rk Wd
Traits Be Bu Ca Ch Gu Hu Lm Mi Rk Wd
Deeds Be Bu Ca Ch Gu Hu Lm Mi Rk Wd

It makes no sense to me at all.

Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 12:43, 7 April 2013 (EDT)
I think it is a graphic navigation tool. It lets you quickly get the class, skills and traits pages for each class. RingTailCat (talk) 14:29, 7 April 2013 (EDT)

Update 12 Revisions

This is the beginning of the revision for Update 12.

Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 11:52, 19 October 2013 (EDT)
I would recommend holding off on documenting these changes until it is officially announced that the beta NDA is lifted. Beta details are only to be discussed on the lotro beta forums until that point...--Savi (talk) 15:13, 21 October 2013 (EDT)

Actually, everything listed was from the Dev Diaries and blue-name posts in the general forums. However, for other reasons, I've moved everything over to: User: Magill/Projects-Update 12-HD-Specialization-Rune-keeper

Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 21:44, 21 October 2013 (EDT)
I am interested in helping updating the Rune-keeper page. Are you accepting contributions to your Update 12 page, Magill?
--Emri (talk) 09:53, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
I've taken the liberty of using the same format as FaceKeyboard did with the Hunter Deeds and have created a set of Runekeeper deeds pages. I've put a link to them in the stub and at the bottom of the page. I haven't done anything with the skills on this page as I was just addressing the new trait line deeds.Gwilliwen (talk) 08:48, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
All of the Trait pages are under work. We haven't settled on a new presentation structure for Trait Trees, but Guardian Traits is winning presently.
As for my "project" pages, I don't mind others updating them. However, they are primarily "notes" i.e. material frequently collected during a Beta and not yet verified against the Live game. Ultimately, the information in them winds up in the main pages.
At the moment, I believe that Burglar, Guardian and Hunter "lead the pack" in getting new materials entered. So, feel free to "dig-in".
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 19:32, 18 December 2013 (UTC)