Lotro-Wiki.com talk:Creatures
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Along with this work, we might think about starting a category for Creature Skills and linking them to the Creatures pages. We don't yet have an easy way to look up what a given monster will be using in a fight. I see some people have described "abilities" in their individual monster entries, but none of them appear to be linked to anything. --Ujaya 18:16, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
- In the updated pages there are links to the abilities or effects that creatures produce. Check out Agitated Barkshredder for an example. This is the newer version of the creature template and the layout of the rest of the page. You can find the boiler plate HERE. There should be no need for that category. Rogue 01:52, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
- I see that the Barkshredder example has a section for "Effects" that is not included in the template? Having an Effects section is good, I see the category for Effects...but what of the offensive skills used by that creature? I don't have a bear skill handy, so I will use Finishing Bite as an example. Is there a category for those types of skill that I'm just not seeing? --Ujaya 19:32, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
- I am not aware of a category for the abilities you are pointing out. Effects can be listed as shown in the boilerplate. It is not included in the actual creature template because that template shows what a Lore-master sees when analyzing a creature, giving you the main stats. Anything above and beyond what you do not see there should be listed below as additional information. :) We like to add that information to a page because a page with just a template looks incomplete or.. I hate to use the word tacky but I can't come up with a better one atm. Anyway, it does not appear that we have pages or categories for all creature special abilities. If that's something you want to work on let me know and I can point you in the right direction or answer any questions you may have. Rogue 21:46, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
- I would be willing to work on that since I'm always trying to look that kind of thing up and can't find it. Any guidance you can give me to get started would be appreciated. --Ujaya 22:42, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- I would say try other sites for lotro information and see if we can compile it all in one place! You could try lorebook (doubtful) or lotro.allakhazam.com/ and lotro.mmodb.com/ for starters. They may have that info. If not then it may be a google search for lotro creature abilities or something like that. Rogue 04:27, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- I think the first order of business would be to create the new category. Should the category be Category:Skills:Monster_Skills, or some such? This would follow what the current convention looks like for class skills, chicken skills etc. If I can just follow the format for the existing skill subcategories, I can then begin adding them, along with icons and mouseover info as I encounter them in game with additions from other sources where possible. --Ujaya 20:05, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
- I created Category:Creature Skills. I would say that what you started with Chicken Skills is fine. I would look to Category:Creatures by Genus for your categories. I would take each species name and attach Skills to the end. Example: Category:Gaunt Men Skills or Category:Boar Skills or Category:Dwarf Brigand Skills. All inside the creature skill category and that creature name category. The Dwarf brigand skills category would have both dwarf brigand category and creature skill category. Hope that helps and gives you a direction. :) Rogue 21:21, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
- I think the first order of business would be to create the new category. Should the category be Category:Skills:Monster_Skills, or some such? This would follow what the current convention looks like for class skills, chicken skills etc. If I can just follow the format for the existing skill subcategories, I can then begin adding them, along with icons and mouseover info as I encounter them in game with additions from other sources where possible. --Ujaya 20:05, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
- I would say try other sites for lotro information and see if we can compile it all in one place! You could try lorebook (doubtful) or lotro.allakhazam.com/ and lotro.mmodb.com/ for starters. They may have that info. If not then it may be a google search for lotro creature abilities or something like that. Rogue 04:27, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- I would be willing to work on that since I'm always trying to look that kind of thing up and can't find it. Any guidance you can give me to get started would be appreciated. --Ujaya 22:42, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- I am not aware of a category for the abilities you are pointing out. Effects can be listed as shown in the boilerplate. It is not included in the actual creature template because that template shows what a Lore-master sees when analyzing a creature, giving you the main stats. Anything above and beyond what you do not see there should be listed below as additional information. :) We like to add that information to a page because a page with just a template looks incomplete or.. I hate to use the word tacky but I can't come up with a better one atm. Anyway, it does not appear that we have pages or categories for all creature special abilities. If that's something you want to work on let me know and I can point you in the right direction or answer any questions you may have. Rogue 21:46, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Hi. I could contribute to the Creatures pages but I would like some clarification on what is needed. Things to Do includes "Lore-master analysis." Does that mean copying and pasting info from the LOTRO Lorebook? Writing new articles? Something to do with the Lore-master class in-game? I'm a decent writer and could add content to the Creature pages that stays true to the game. But I wouldn't want to break the rules if the preference is to stick to the official Lorebook. Fredeghar Wayfarer (talk) 20:52, 1 August 2011 (EDT)
- Hi there, Fredeghar Wayfarer! Lore-master analysis refers to the skill Knowledge of the Lore-master, which is what we depend on for a lot of our creature information. Pretty much everything in Category:Stubs/Mob needs some degree of attention, whether it's an inspect ("Lore-master analysis") or otherwise. Regarding the Lorebook, we actually try to avoid using ("copying") from there as much as possible - information directly from the game is definitely the gold standard. Sometimes we use their data, but only as a last resort, heh. Creature stuff in general is mostly about filling in the details, I think, but it's great to have more capable writers on hand. :)
If you're feeling photographic, you can also check out Category:Mobs Needing an Image or Category:Stubs/Image for more things to do. Hope this helps with a direction - feel free to ask questions or post on the creature project forum if any issues come up! Sethladan 22:06, 1 August 2011 (EDT)
- Please start by looking at a few of the more complete creature pages. (My contributions may not be good examples!) The process of filling in the information on these pages is one of capturing and transcribing the information displayed to you by the game. We transcribe the morale and power numbers, buffs, info from the tooltip, and from the Lore-master analysis display, and from the general and combat logs. This can involve direct transcription from the game display, or from a screen capture (by default: F11), or a chat log. We also make note of the creature's behavior, attack and defence strategies, and effective ways to fight it. Like a good tourist, we take a photo of the creature, again using a screen capture which we crop using an image editor (I use Paint.NET).
- As far as I can tell, we never copy & paste content from the lorebook and never copy image or icon files from the lorebook. The lorebook presented in-game is actually a browser window looking at the same page you would see by browsing to the lorebook outside the game. From what I can tell, the game includes a dedicated version of the Chrome browser. Some of the content of the lorebook, from what I understand, is generated directly from game data, but is often much less complete than what we have here.
- BTW, I am just another contributor, so what I say is not authoritative. RingTailCat (talk) 22:12, 1 August 2011 (EDT)
- Thanks, guys. In terms of writing content, I was thinking more of background/story information. I am very knowledgeable about Middle-earth and have learned a lot about the game's version of it. I look at, for example, the page for Kergrim and there is nothing about the creature other than where you can find them and the fact that they're aggressive. Would more "in-world" info be something that is needed? That's what I am more familiar with. Do players using this site care about that or are the more functional game stats what people look for? Fredeghar Wayfarer (talk) 01:05, 2 August 2011 (EDT)
- That would be interesting. I don't remember them from the books, although there were only 4 books readily available back when I read them. I heard Turbine invented a few creatures for the game, but it would be fun to read more about Tolkien's monsters. RingTailCat (talk) 01:21, 2 August 2011 (EDT)
- They were created for the game. But I've learned enough info from Turbine's website and the game itself to do a decent writeup. This was something I noticed about many of the Creature pages here. The background info is either lifted straight from the Lorebook or missing entirely. Not sure if others are interested but I know that when I first started playing, I would encounter a new creature, think "What the heck is a kergrim?", and come here looking for info, only to be disappointed. I can help expand this part of the articles if that would be of interest to anyone else. Fredeghar Wayfarer (talk) 01:34, 2 August 2011 (EDT)
- Adding "lore" information sounds great - I've found myself wondering the same thing at times ("what the heck is a kergrim/rogmul/caerog/limrafn?") so there are doubtlessly others who'd be curious to read that info. As long as you're not copying verbatim from somewhere else (Wikipedia, Lorebook, Encyclopedia of Arda), feel free to add what you've learned and link at the bottom for further reading where applicable. It'll be neat to know what's Tolkien's lore and what Turbine has added/embellished/etc. Thanks! :) Sethladan 13:50, 2 August 2011 (EDT)
- Cool. I'll get started on that. Thanks again. Fredeghar Wayfarer (talk) 19:16, 2 August 2011 (EDT)
- Adding "lore" information sounds great - I've found myself wondering the same thing at times ("what the heck is a kergrim/rogmul/caerog/limrafn?") so there are doubtlessly others who'd be curious to read that info. As long as you're not copying verbatim from somewhere else (Wikipedia, Lorebook, Encyclopedia of Arda), feel free to add what you've learned and link at the bottom for further reading where applicable. It'll be neat to know what's Tolkien's lore and what Turbine has added/embellished/etc. Thanks! :) Sethladan 13:50, 2 August 2011 (EDT)
- They were created for the game. But I've learned enough info from Turbine's website and the game itself to do a decent writeup. This was something I noticed about many of the Creature pages here. The background info is either lifted straight from the Lorebook or missing entirely. Not sure if others are interested but I know that when I first started playing, I would encounter a new creature, think "What the heck is a kergrim?", and come here looking for info, only to be disappointed. I can help expand this part of the articles if that would be of interest to anyone else. Fredeghar Wayfarer (talk) 01:34, 2 August 2011 (EDT)
- That would be interesting. I don't remember them from the books, although there were only 4 books readily available back when I read them. I heard Turbine invented a few creatures for the game, but it would be fun to read more about Tolkien's monsters. RingTailCat (talk) 01:21, 2 August 2011 (EDT)
- Thanks, guys. In terms of writing content, I was thinking more of background/story information. I am very knowledgeable about Middle-earth and have learned a lot about the game's version of it. I look at, for example, the page for Kergrim and there is nothing about the creature other than where you can find them and the fact that they're aggressive. Would more "in-world" info be something that is needed? That's what I am more familiar with. Do players using this site care about that or are the more functional game stats what people look for? Fredeghar Wayfarer (talk) 01:05, 2 August 2011 (EDT)
Goblins are found most everywhere. When I first looked at the goblin page I realized that many areas where not even included the categorization. I listed the names of some of the goblins a remeber, but the goblin page really need some help here, and it is not the only one... I think we should start working on pages that sort creature by genus. --Bonzesquire (talk) 23:27, 20 September 2011 (EDT)
- Creatures are already sorted by genera. For instance, see Category:Goblins. You can click at the individual goblin pages there and see in what location they occur, and then add that to the Goblins page. We don't want new pages with these sort of list because well... pages with lists are basically categories. ;-) Hope that helped. --Ravanel (talk) 03:36, 21 September 2011 (EDT)
Update 6 Changes and template issues - new Knowledge of the Loremaster Output.
Issue 1- From the Help Create Creature page, the "editing page" does not insert the {{subst:PAGENAME}} value for the Name parameter.
Issue 2- The template parameter "conj-immune" is now replaced by "F.M. Immune:". As it turns out, it displays correctly on the Wikipage, but not in either the template or the "explanation" section - very confusing.
Issue 3- the comment under location is not filled in from parameters in the template.
- Issue 1: I never use that myself (it's not that much work to copy-paste the creature name into it), so can't comment on this.
- I can comment on Issue 2. When Knowledge of the Lore-master was changed with update 5, I changed the template as to make everything appear correctly. The change from conj-immune to F.M. Immune is merely a cosmetic change, since the content in the inspect window still has the same meaning. It was the easiest solution to do, because one would otherwise either need to clean up the old parameter in all existing creature pages (and there are a lot of them) or pollute the template by adding a parameter that results in exactly the same. I figured creature editors would know enough of the game to realize that a conjunction is the same as a fellowship manoeuvre.
- Issue 3: I think it is good that one has the option to add information here yourself. The info should always be more extensive than just the region name anyway. Making a code do this might be more complicated than it seems. E.g. how does it know it should say "he/she/they"? We'd need another button in the template for that, or make it post only half a sentence. Also, how do you make sure the info becomes readable in a nice sentence, while there is information you'll still have to add manually? Seems a lot of work to me for a small change. If someone feels like creating this, sure, but otherwise I think it's fine as it is. --Ravanel (talk) 06:05, 6 March 2012 (EST)