User talk:Sethladan

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Please see discussion Template talk:Deed#Reputation Faction template change Matthew.zellmer Matthew.zellmer (talk) 12:23, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Indentation problem with Documentation template

See: Article Management Tags/Display
I had this problem once before -- where the stack of article management tags failed to line-uup; each one being indented slightly from the previous one.

Note that this effect (I think) only manifests itself when two or more tags are stacked.

Needless to say, I don't remember what it was that caused the problem or how I fixed it.

There is some artifact now associated with each template which causes the NEXT line of the main page to be indented "one-unit."

Interestingly I also noted that Template:Documentation/doc is in Category: Template Documentation but the main category: Template:Documentation is in Category: WIP Templates.
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 19:40, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
As a quick-fix, I took the unordered list (the bullet points) out of the template listing and that seemed to get rid of the weird behavior. I don't doubt that something I did mucked up the way you had it working before (probably by deleting a line-break) but at the same time - from an HTML perspective - a table probably shouldn't be contained inside a <li> item; block vs. inline elements and all that hooey.
And yeah, I put Template:Documentation in the WIP category when I was working on it, and never moved it out when I started running around spamming it all over the place like candy chipmunks. I guess it could go in Category:Template Documentation itself - do you know anywhere else that'd be a better home for it? (And I just had a thunderbolt of a thought that I'll have to try out; maybe I can get around the issues I've had with = signs and pipe characters.) Sethladan 22:56, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
A little more elaboration on Template:Documentation (which perhaps should be - hah - better documented: When you/I/whoever slaps the template on a /doc page, it will automatically add that page (the /doc) to Cat:Template Documentation, and that's it. The <includeonly>[[Category:Somecategory]]</includeonly> that's on the /doc page is applied to the template, which is why Template:Documentation is in Cat:WIP Templates. I did it this way so that templates can be recategorized as needed without having to edit the template itself (and potentially kick off thousands of jobs). Sethladan 23:07, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

A possible problem or maybe just bad documentation

Template: Loot -- the "optional item name" is not optional. See: Armour of the Liberator.

I don't know if this is new behavior or it has always worked that way -- I haven't created an Armour Set for some time.

Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 20:41, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Looks like you were missing the quality parameter - check the examples again on Template:Loot. I changed one of the items to point out the difference. Sethladan 22:40, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
This template is just weird. Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 03:01, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
Heh, it's a relic from the long dark years before we could pull an item's quality directly from the page itself. I noticed that you set the quality for all the Armour of the Liberator items to "common" on the set page, but the items themselves are all "incomparable." Is something still not working right on your side? Sethladan 06:11, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
In-game, the entries are all black and white -- no pretty colors. So I was just matching the in-game display. Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 17:42, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
Huh. That's new. Have Turbine changed the way set tooltips look, then? More catching up to do, oy. Sethladan 22:44, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Broken template

I just noticed that a new User:‎ JordonBrooker was modifying a number of Category: Social kinship pages -- including OTG.

In trying to understand what was going on, I notiticed multiple things;

  • Boilerplate kinships refers to two non-existent pages: {{Boilerplate:Kinship}} and {{Template:Boilerplate:Kinship/doc}} in its first sentence.
  • The {{Template:Kinships}} has been modified significantly. -- i.e. it no longer includes {{Template:Kinship}} (note: no trailing "s") which inserts the Kinship header on a page.
  • {{Template:Kinships}} also has some strange quirk now. The "World" parameter (see OTG displays "World: I" and then on the next line "Gladden" -- and the rest of the parameters are not being parsed/displayed! I think it used to work correctly :) but using the history page, none of the versions show it (OTG) working correctly.
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 16:22, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
Whoah, your turn to find my mistakes - good catch!
  • I do not know that Template:Kinships has ever included the Template:Kinship banner (ugh, someone needs to rename one of those). Creating a new kinship via Create new kinship still includes both of them, stacked one on top of the other. My preference would be to keep them separate since they do somewhat different things. (As a matter of fact, I wonder how much we really need the banner, since it's unlikely anyone's going to stumble upon a kinship page and think it's in-game content.)
  • The Template:Kinships "quirk" is entirely my fault; introduced some bad table formatting in my last edit because I wasn't paying attention to what I was condensing. Fixed now, sorry!
I'm going to have to be a little more cautious when running roughshod over templates, heh. Make haste slowly. :) Thanks for pointing these out! Sethladan 20:46, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
And sorry for moving the OTG page and not cleaning up after myself! I'm usually more assiduous than that... Sethladan 20:48, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
The question about the Banner is an interesting one -- I modified the imbedded coded to transclude the kinship template, literally "last year" (18 August 2013).
It seems that I managed to eliminate it two months later - in October of 2013 when I was setting up the doc page. It looks like I put the transclusion of Kinship on the Doc Page and eliminated it from the template itself!
BTW: You also commented out the entire section "=== Meaning Behind the Parameters ==="
  • Read the talk page Template talk:Kinships, I answered the comment from years ago about the duplicate names... :) What I neglected to add was the issue of "singular vs plural".
I started to change all of the singulars to plurals, but "got bored" I guess... there are still between 50 and 100 entries to change. -- then we can get rid of the singular version of the template and hard code it back into the plural version :)
The main reason, I think I stopped was the fact that I had virtually no information about many of the Kinships, and I knew that some of the newer entries did not use either template at all.
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 03:22, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
Ah-hah, so they WERE conjoined at some point - seems I didn't pay enough attention (again) when flipping through the history. Thanks for finding the date and clarifying.
With respect to "do we need the banner?" I was thinking more along the lines of do we actually need something (regardless of it's a separate template or not) across the top of the page saying "Hey! This is a kinship page!" or is that evident enough from the infobox? And when you boil it down, the kinship template is probably mostly there as a convenience for people to make pages: Most people just sort of vomit up a page and then forget about it - as you pointed out, there's often not even enough information there for those of us with the inclination to "fix-up."
And my "commenting stuff out" was a consequence of "getting bored," too, hahah. Whenever I find big tables on documentation pages, I just take shortcuts around fixing them thinking my second pass through the templates will focus on cleaning those up. Of course, that does leave some gaping holes floating around in the meantime... Sethladan 03:59, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
I suppose that this is part of the original WIKI concept of providing a "standard look and feel" by using templates. An effort to avoid the "wall of text" effect? The two banners (PC and Kinship) both pre-date the PC and Kinship templates. When I was making a consolidation pass ?last year? I got rid of the separate PC banner by incorporating it in the PC template and then going through the users of the PC Banner and replacing it with the template. As I recall, there were very few of them. When I started to do the same thing with the Kinships, I discovered that that the Kinship banner was much more widely used.
As I recall, there are a couple of other templates of the same type -- an original and a revised, and renamed template. I suspect (I think) we are getting some of that same "problem" with the Mob/Creature template changes that have been made recently. I haven't really followed up on the work that that was done there. He (Zelmer?) may have gone back and changed all of the old versions to the new format (or kept the same name), I don't know.
As the saying goes -- Oh well! "Churchy" LaFemme! (I'm an old Pogo fan.) Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 18:31, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Found another one...

I suspect that this may happen in other situations as well, but I just noticed it while creating a new title.

  • While using the Create new title tool I noticed that the "pretty green" help section included the line
"This is the template documentation for {{Bandit Slayer of West Gondor}}. It is transcluded from Template:Bandit Slayer of West Gondor/doc and may be directly edited there."

Guess what title I was creating? Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 22:02, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Nice catch! This is symptomatic of that great documentation project that I abandoned because templates were more fun (and then I abandoned templates because Final Fantasy XIV was more fun...). Should be fixed now - at least for titles; hopefully there aren't more like this. Sethladan 13:19, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

A very weird one

Create new item set is really weirdly broken. It has no changes showing since 2013 and the template: Template: Settip is unmodified since 2011. However, I could have sworn I just used it last week, and it worked correctly.

I don't know if this has been broken now for over a year, which it looks like, of if it is an artifact of our recent passes through templates...
Parts list:
You have recent comments on the talk page.
So I started out to debug/fix what was happening and "tripped."
  • Trying to create a /doc page using the {{Documentation template. So far, I have simply copied and pasted some stuff, which has not been edited to be relevant or to make sense yet.
However, if you look at that /doc page, you will see green down to a point where, if I put the closing Braces AFTER the next sentence, the Documentation template fails.
Taking out the {{t|Item Tooltip}} from that line has no effect.
Any guess what is happening?
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 21:10, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
I think I patched the issue with Create new item set: I discovered when I was doing the template documentation conversions that there are some very odd issues with includes (<onlyinclude>, <noinclude>, <includeonly>) when it comes to transclusions. Specifically, they're getting read somehow even when you surround them with nowikis, and the only way I've seen to avert this is to "break" them by HTML-escaping an angle bracket (&lt;). I don't know if this is something recent, but as far as I'm aware, it's not anything "we" did/do wrong; it's just a funky MediaWiki thing (possibly a bug? possibly intended?).
The issues you found with creating that documentation page, on the other hand, is unfortunately a symptom of {{Documentation}}'s limitations. It just doesn't like equals signs (templates in general kick up a fuss about them; we're just seeing it writ large here). I cleaned up Template:Settip/doc so that the green box shows as intended - by deleting some "=" and replacing others with Template: = - but am starting to think I should just kill the green box because this is more trouble than it's worth.
Did I get everything? Sethladan 19:41, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
I've gotten side-tracked by Dr. Who :). At any rate, This brings up multiple questions/issues.
  • How? Where? Is? such stuff documented. I have yet to find any thing which documents Templates very well.
If we are to document it -- where should we do it? Project: Tools?
One thing seems to be -- when (if) it talks about a Parser, which Parser is being talked about?
In a recent discussion on my Talk page, User_talk:Magill#Flint_Rune-stone_of_the_Second_Age Barny indicates that a template is "case-insensitive."
Is that true? If so, when/where does it apply.
  • References I find to "case-sensitivity" seem to only refer to the search of the File systems involved, and occasionally to Namespace reference.
Being an old Unix hand, I am well aware of the Case-Sensitive/Case-Insensetive/Case-Preserving debates and arguments, but don't know the answers within the context of both the Media Wiki and Templates in particular.
  • Ok, created a /doc page for {{=}} Hopefully, it did not break anything.
  • I also note there is a Template {{(!}} - A replacement for table start inside #if and #switch: {| -- as well as an assortment of !/!!/!!!/!)/!- templates in Category: Support Templates
I've updated your list of "support templates" at User:Sethladan/Template_Notes#Progress
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 00:03, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Blast that timey-wimey business. Hope you're enjoying the new season, at least! (I'm not a Whovian so I am not at all up to speed here.)
Attempting to address the various "things" you mentioned:
Parser: My understanding of how the MediaWiki software works is that is reads through (parses) code in a couple - two? maybe more? - passes; think of it along the lines of preprocessor directives from C/C++. One of these interprets the so-called parser functions - the #ifs, #switches, stuff like that. It's only after this that it starts doing template expansion, and probably after that is when wikitext gets converted into HTML (''this'' becomes <i>this</i> and so on). I'm not 100% certain on which occurs when especially when you start mixing and nesting things, but that's the general idea. Understanding this sequential processing of what's going on helps you realize why things like the Documentation template go nuts when there are certain characters in the wrong places. Which brings us to...
{{!!}} and siblings: As you know, pipe characters are used both in templates (to separate parameters) and in MediaWiki table syntax. Since the template "parser" (probably a poor choice of words, maybe "template pass of the MediaWiki parser"?) gobbles those up (interpreting them as parameter delimiters) along with the text following (interpreting THAT as a parameter or a parameter name), there's nothing left to eventually be displayed as tables. With {{!!}}, those templates get expanded (to ||, etc.) and the necessary characters are in place to be interpreted into HTML tables.
  • Hoom ta-room! I just discovered that, as of version 1.24 (we're currently on 1.23), {{!}} is a "variable" in MediaWiki (see here, scroll way down to the end of the section). This might mean that we'll have less (zero?) need for that particular template after we upgrade, and might consider unwinding and removing the whole family down the road. {{!!}} is still a lot cleaner than {{!}}{{!}}, though.
As far as I know, we don't have any of this documented; I've just integrated a lot of it by osmosis during my time here. I think I started learning templates from the link on the very bottom left of my user page, and worked my way up from there with a lot of trial and error. I know there are a few of my little explanations/lectures scattered around (I think you've managed to find and collect some), but insofar as an authoritative Help:Templates (probably need several pages to adequately cover the topic), that definitely still needs to be written. Project:System Tools is as likely a destination as Project:Documentation for any sort of collaborative effort to that end.
Regarding case-insensitivity in templates, parameter names are case-sensitive. The template(s) that Barny mentions on your talk page were written to accommodate inconsistency in capitalization, probably through {{lc: foo}} or something like that - "parser functions" again! This is a programmatic thing and not anything magical about templates in-and-of-themselves. I don't know off-hand if all of our templates that makes switch comparisons are written that way (not sure if that was Barny's intent with "For every template:"), but I suspect this not to be the case since we still have a bunch with weird old coding. The only true instance of case-insensitivity that I can think of is that the first letter of a page or namespace name always gets uppercased - thus main Page works as well as Main Page but not Main page or main page.
Thanks for creating that /doc page and for updating my list! School is back in swing up here, so I'll be Final-Fantasy-ing less and possibly wiki-ing more; hopefully I can get some more progress in on the documenting front. And this was so much more fun than my assignment on vector cross-products, hahah. Sethladan 20:55, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Yet another bug in Template:Documentation.

While cleaning up some of the /doc pages for Category: Support Templates, I came across several which don't quite work right.

All show up as "This is the template documentation for {{Legacy}}. It is transcluded from Template:Legacy/doc and may be directly edited there."
missing the fact that all are in fact sub pages (sub templates?). Which in fact they are. The 3 Lootbox templates /Blank, /Missing, /Row -- are similarly incorrect.

One presumes that instead of "BASEPAGENAMEE" (an extra trailing E?) using "PAGENAME" would solve that problem. (PAGENAME=Full page title (including all subpage levels) without the namespace.)
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 22:09, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, that's still an issue but it's the very next on my list of things to fix: See the "Interim" line at User:Sethladan/Template Notes#Progress. PAGENAME won't work either. The extra trailing E probably stands for (url-)"Encoded" in those pagename variables - making sure stuff is link-safe. This is the same issue I had with the stubs (and why I moved all of them), but taking that shortcut only kicked the can down the road a few weeks. :P Sethladan 14:39, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Update to User:Sethladan/Template_Notes#Progress

I've been updating User:Sethladan/Template_Notes#Progress as I've been working some of the /doc files.

One "new" template I noticed you created in Category: Support Templates is Template: Analysis-quality. Tried to document it, but since it's not used anywhere, you'll have to do that.

Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 22:15, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
Thanks! I replied over at Template talk:Analysis-quality/doc. You can ignore that one for now if you want. Sethladan 14:34, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Interesting template interaction

While making a generic Icon for a couple of rings, I encountered an interesting quirk. A seeming interaction between Crafting (in the Recipe setup) and Item

  • Apparently, after renaming the ring icon (with no redirect), if you try to update the Recipe for an item before you update the Item entry, the Icon (or lack thereof) will override the "|image" parameter in the Recipe Template.
Update the Item entry and the Recipe icon is updated. Clearing Cache and purging had no effect until I realized I hadn't updated the Item entry.
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 23:40, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
On my iPad here with one foot in bed, so I can't double-check to my satsfaction, but I'm not seeing an image parameter documented for either {{Recipe}} or {{Crafting}}. I suspect you're seeing artifacts of old code that don't actually do anything at all. Templates - as far as I know - can't affect one another that way except perhaps with some kind of Javascript getting in the middle there (or one is somehow inside the other, but that's not the case with Recipe and Crafting).
That said, Crafting does use the Reward template (or something like it) to pull the icon from the item's page - that's intended behavior and the "icon" (not image) parameters are there only in the event that something needs to be overridden or we don't have the right item page yet. This is why you saw the icon update after changing the item's page. Sethladan 03:54, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Am I trying to do too much?

I don't know if I'm trying to do to much, or if I'm hitting a bug in MediaWiki.

  • Talk to Gollum, and let him know how things stand'
It "seems to work" ... mostly.
The data is all transcluded, but the WikiMarkup is not working, completely.
The first level == header works and all level === headers work, but the intervening level == headers are not working; it acts like they cannot be seen.
  • Related to this, I don't doubt, is the Questbox template.
If you look at Category: Western Gondor Quests note the "=== Epic Quest Line ===" at the top.
Look at the quest: Quest:Introduction: Central Gondor
Two things -- one the "=== Epic Quest Line ===" is not interpreted
and the TOC for the quest is co-mingled with the Toc for the Category page.
I've seen the failure of the Epic quest line to interpret, but it was an isolated thing (no TOC interaction), so I've just ignored it.
I'm guessing that getting rid of the selective transcludes in Category: Warband Quests will resolve the problem as that is the common page.
I cleaned up the markup in the Warbands page, closing blockquote tags before opening new ones, and it seems to have fixed the problem. Not sure how wiki markup is supposed to behave inside blockquotes as I never use them, but will investigate further. Snarpel (talk) 13:33, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
The short answer is, "Yes, you're trying to do too much." :P
More to the point, though: I fixed the issue with Category:Warband Quests - an "==" only gets read as a header tag if it's on the beginning of a line (this is also the case for "{|" and other table syntax stuff). Since you had everything on Category:Warband Quests inside onlyincludes, the spacing was getting ignored and the == Wildermore == text was tacked on right at the end of the previous section instead of going down to the next line (leading and trailing whitespace is stripped when inside of parser functions like #ifeq, so the linebreak has to appear outside of the curly braces).
Regarding Quest:Introduction: Central Gondor, Neum's already changed the page to avoid the issue of the ToC, but I will remind you of our issues years ago with transcluding epic quest chains - see for example Category:Book 2 Quests - notice the "span style=" business at the top instead of the header (I think you actually have a note about this somewhere in all your Magill's Corner pages). Transcluding headers means they're going to be read into the table of contents by the receiving page. Either don't use headers (i.e. use CSS instead to style how you want it) or don't transclude them.
I know that indentation helps you to organize things, but please try to take it easy with the blockquotes. If the header levels aren't visually distinct enough for you, we can fix that, but opening and closing tons of tags can make things harder to debug / maintain. Sethladan 15:29, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
Decided to fianlly redo this warband page and isntead of using the selective transclusing I am going to create descrete transclude pages, with an index. Matthew.zellmer (talk) 20:11, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Question about Jewellery of the Survivalist

Hi there, I'm a brand new editor and I wanted to check with you about some changes I would like to make, because they involve restoring at least one article that was deleted by you.

In going through Moria on a new toon, I received Item:Survivalist's_Ring from a quest reward. I came straight to the Wiki to see where I might find the other two pieces, only to be told that the Jewellery_of_the_Survivalist set had been removed entirely. Since then I've also received the Item:Survivalist's_Bracelet. The Ring came from a quest with the same name as before, but in the 21st Hall instead (bestowed by the same NPC), but the Bracelet came from a different quest entirely. Haven't come across the third piece yet.

Anyway, my intention was to bring the cluster of associated articles up to date by documenting the quests as they now exist, and updating the item pages to link to them. I'm hoping I eventually come across the earring from the set.

Is this something I can do without breaking rules and etiquette? For now I'm going to start gathering the information in my user page. Thanks, Binga dinga (talk) 17:55, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Hi there! Welcome aboard and I think you may have earned yourself a "best new editor" award or something, hahah. I appreciate your careful research and conscientiousness (on top of, of course, your enthusiasm for fixin' stuff up). We don't really have any hard-and-fast rules about restoring stuff and, as far as etiquette goes, you hit the nail on the head by double-checking before going forward.
I went ahead and restored Quest:Faint But Fierce for the ring, so feel free to update that with any current information you have from doing it. My edits with respect to the set and related quests, etc. were based on second-hand info (not always a good idea), so whatever you're encountering in-game definitely takes precedence and you should also feel free to correct my edits to Jewellery of the Survivalist and company.
Let me know if you come across anything else that I deleted that should be restored. As an alternative, you have my blessing to just go ahead and recreate things yourself (the only difference would be that restoring it brings back the old text and might make for a little less work on your part). And, of course, any questions or issues that come up, you know where to find me. :) Sethladan 18:26, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for your prompt and detailed response, and for restoring the quest page! I feel very welcome! I'll start on that restored page and see where I go from there. And hopefully I'll come across that third piece at some point to complete the updating. Binga dinga (talk) 18:44, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
Happily enough, it looks like the page had the current information when it was deleted, so it doesn't require any changes. If you wouldn't mind restoring the following related pages so I can check them too, I'd appreciate it: [[Category:A Faint Gleam Quests]] and Quest:A Gleam in the Gloom Binga dinga (talk) 18:54, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
1- When you insert a "Category" [[Category:A Faint Gleam Quests]] in text - place a colon ":" infront of the word "Category" or it will "Categorize" that page, rather than display the text as you intended. Category:A Faint Gleam Quests. "Categorize" means to place that page into the "Category" indicated at the bottom of the page.
2- The "Notes" section of the Quest: Faint But Fierce lists the quests where the other 2 piece of the jewellery may be found. If correct, please consider adding (copying) that same note to the other relevant quests.
3- Both have been restored.
4- Consider making the entry "questchain = A Faint Gleam" - common across all of the related quests, instead of the "questgroup" - Personally, I would leave the "questgroup" blank. This was a mechanic used by Turbine many years ago, which they have stopped using in recent revision.
Quests in Moria were "reorganized" here on the Wiki some time ago, prior to the two significant revisions to Moria done by Turbine in Update 7 (Dev Diary no longer on-line) and
Update 9
(above comments duplicated on your user page)Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 20:00, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
Wow, I really goofed when I deleted all that stuff if it was already current. Just goes to show the perils of not checking things yourself. Glad you guys are putting the pieces back together! Sethladan 21:35, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
The category page still had the old information. Cleaned that up and did a bit of tweaking on the related pages. Thanks again to you both! Binga dinga (talk) 21:43, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

This work is a bit like a hydra, isn't it? Since I found which quest gives the third piece of the set and it didn't have a page yet, I figured I'd make one while I was completing the quest itself. And the quest brought me to four landscape quests that didn't have pages, either. And one of them had a reward that didn't have a page, so obviously I needed to fix that, too!

Which brings me to my question: what did I do wrong on Armour of Rûgh? I copied the content from Gapi's Armour (as far as I can tell they're the same item, re-named when it was moved to a different quest), but I broke the formatting somehow so that the page doesn't display properly and even the link to it in The Banner of Uzbad-bakân doesn't work. Is it the special character in the name?

This has eaten my afternoon, so I'm going to leave it alone for now. I don't mean to be a pest but I'm hoping that my problem will be an obvious one with an easy fix! Binga dinga (talk) 00:17, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

You're on fire! You have discovered two of the wiki's greatest perils on your first day in. The "like a hydra" experience is very common, and you'll quickly find that every stone unturned leads to a whole gaggle of new paths to follow or things to check. It's for this reason that I long ago learned to confine myself to very narrowly defined projects lest I end up endlessly heading down the rabbit hole.
The second of said perils is the | disambigpage = parameter that you'll find in item pages and elsewhere. In short, this tells the wiki software what page is the "home" page for that particular item. Because we have some magic that brings the item's information onto other pages when you link to it, "disambiguating" the page is an important but not-obvious step. In the case of Item:Armour of Rûgh, this got left out entirely and the software couldn't make the expected connections/assumptions/etc. The simple fix is just to add the full page name (including the Item: prefix) on the | disambigpage = line.
There's an additional gotcha here to be aware of, though, in that you will occasionally find items with apostrophes in their name and, for whatever reason, that character and that character alone will similarly generate less-than-satisfactory results. The workaround here (which you can use in the general case instead of remembering which is which) is to use the code {{subst:FULLPAGENAME}}. A reminder about this can be found on Boilerplate:Item - I know you haven't had a chance to read through the documentation, so I'm just pointing you there as a reference should you find yourself doing a lot of items and wondering what does what.
Hope that covers you for now! Keep up your awesome enthusiasm, continue asking questions (not at all pesty!), but also remember to take breaks - it's easy to lose track of time and direction when you're up to your eyeballs in wiki possibilities. :) (Magill can tell you all about the projects he's started and suspended in pursuit of the next "Argh! Gotta fix that...!") Sethladan 01:56, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
I would just like to add one more thing, you didn't add the item level. This was added by Turbine only a few Updates ago and thus the majority of items, especially old quest rewards, still don't have the item level. Because you copied another set of armour that was made before that update, the item level parameter wasn't included along with the rest of the usual things you have to fill in. So whenever you see an item without an item level, add " | item_level = " in between " | quality = " and " | unique = ", and then just add the item level after it that you see ingame, and you should be all set! (Example of something with an item level: Item:Walnut Theorbo of the Wary Watcher) Balorgor (talk) 02:43, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
Both of these problems are addressed if one uses the "Crete xxx" tool. Five common ones are found in the left margin on every page under the "Create Article" heading. ALL of the tools are listed on the Help page in the "Yellow" section at the lower left. The "Green" section on the right side is a corresponding explanation of the tool, and frequently additional (optional) information to be added to any given page. While it sometimes seems faster to "cut and paste" that frequently leads to exactly the kinds of problems you have encountered, which results in time wasted for "do-overs" and hunting down what went wrong. Once you become familiar with the "quirks" of the Wiki, cut and paste is most effective when replicating a number of similar pages -- by then "you know" (ha ha) what things you have to change on each page as your "production line" unfolds. ... Multiple tabs and large screens (like my 27 inch one) which allow multiple browser windows to be open aide by side (and layered one on top of each other) all at the same time is a TREMENDOUS force multiplier (for confusion) :)!
Sigh only two more episodes of Dr. Who to the season finale! (And then life returns to Beornings.)
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 03:26, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Request to add to Boilerplate:Title

See it here: Talk:Boilerplate:Title.

Mogafi (talk) 21:24, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Oh, and the same goes for Template:Infobox MP Titles, which doesn't honour the name parameter.
Mogafi (talk) 21:26, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
I updated the preload file for Create new title.
The "obvious" question becomes -- is Template:Infobox MP Titles completely redundant? Especially now that I have exposed the MP parameter in Boilerplate:Title.
Of course I have no idea what that Parameter does and haven't traced it down :)
And to make things even more interesting -- I've transcluded Template:Infobox Titles/doc into the Boilerplate:Title page, which "works" except that the Documentation template puts in a header that is not quite correct. :(
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 01:49, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
Taking a quick look at Template:Infobox MP Titles It appears that the only thing it does is to use the MP CSS entry.
However. a quick look at the MP=y parameter apparently does nothing.
Don't know what it is supposed to do, but it is not obvious that it works. More investigation necessary. But it should be possible to combine the two templates.
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 02:01, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
Bleh (or good, I don't know) the MP Title template is hardcoded colors, not using CSS.
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 02:10, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
Double bleah... yeah, the MP parameter is in UPPER case, and works as expected! Any non-blank character for MP= will trigger the orange and black color scheme.
So it looks like the "original" - Template:Infobox MP Titles - is completely unnecessary.
If you all concur, we can simply delete it. As, I believe the template is only used during the creation of the Title. So it should be easy to bot --
  • Change "Infobox MP Titles" to "Infobox Titles"
  • Insert "| MP = y" as the next line
  • Insert "| name = " as the next line
I think that will do it. There are less than 50 MP Titles, so it could also be done by hand, pretty quickly.
I just changed Scout with no apparent ill effects.
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 02:22, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for handling that, Magill, and I am 100% in support of axing the MP Titles template if it's redundant. I'm going to make a mental note to see if we can't apply the same switch behavior to the other MP-specific templates. Good thinking.
Regarding the Boilerplate: I don't even know why we have this. The only thing the boilerplate does is duplicate the work of the template documentation. Can we cut out the middleman and just direct people to the source? As a more immediate fix, though, I went ahead and manhandled Template:Documentation to hide the link text and green box in cases where it's being rendered outside of the Template namespace. I still think it's bad practice to transclude pages wholesale (that's what links are for!), but this will at least keep things looking less ugly. Sethladan 13:54, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
A bunch of hot air in response to Boilerplate vs Template/doc is over at: Talk:Boilerplates -- so we'll see if anyone else bites.
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 22:08, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the breadcrumb. For clarity's sake, my "why do we have this?" was specifically related to the title boilerplate. I have my own take on boilerplates in general and may go bloviate on that talk page as well at some point. Sethladan 01:53, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Vales of Anduin map - java script issue

See: Talk: Vales of Anduin.

Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 00:21, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Osbenn and friends

I think the long name is better, because the most of them are twice in the game. Example Osbenn in Lancrath. Barny (talk) 21:08, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Well, okay. But that's why we have the (Region disambiguation) thing. Sethladan 21:38, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
It's also an option^^.Barny (talk) 23:16, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Change(s) needed to deed template.

Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 21:03, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Class Essences require your input

I am working on the Class Essences from the Quartermaster_(Men_of_Dor-en-Ernil) and was wondering how to list them on the [[1]] page as they all seem to be new Essence Icons and arent to easy to categorize or just do each one individually?

Your thoughts

PS Sand Flies is now corrected to Sand-fliess :-)

Cheers Sucamarto (talk) 03:56, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Hi Suca! Thanks for double-checking on the capitalization for me. :)
As for the essence icons, you can go ahead and put them in Category:Essence Icons (add [[Category:Essence Icons]] on each of the icon pages). For the class essence icons, I guess there are some that are repeated, right? So you have the right idea to use names like Essence 1 (rare), Essence 2 (rare) and so on. Maybe we'll change the names later if we find a pattern, but your way is good for starting.
Are they only rare now, or are there some incomparable versions, too? If there are no uncommon/epic/whatever, then you don't need to make links for those. I haven't played Central Gondor and don't know anything about the new stuff - you are the better judge here.
Finally, can you see any way to get the icons without the little 7 in the corner? Neum or Magill might be able to help you get those pictures - they know more about the icons than I do. Sethladan 14:33, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

A syntax question:

Trying to use a couple of "Magic Words" (

  • Signed: {{subst:REVISIONUSER}} on {{subst:REVISIONTIMESTAMP#dateformat | ymd}} -- Yields:
Signed: Magill on 20150130201803

In theory all one needs to do is pipe REVISIONTIMESTAMP into #dateformat -- but I apparently don't know how to do that

this doesn't work either: {{#dateformat:{{subst:REVISIONTIMESTAMP}}|ISO 8601}}
  • 20150130201803

What I have not managed to guess so far (and haven't found any useful examples) is how to use #dateformat with REVISIONTIMESTAMP

Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 20:18, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
My guess, not having worked with formatting dates, is that {{#dateformat: }} doesn't know what to do with the time part of the timestamp. The end of this section suggests you use {{#time: }} from the ParserFunctions extension (which we already have installed), so that might better get at what you're aiming for.
  1. {{#time:F j, Y}} → January 6, 2018
  2. {{#time:Y-m-d | {{REVISIONTIMESTAMP}} }} → 2017-09-15
If you want to stick with {{#dateformat: }}, some testing yields a couple possibilities:
  1. {{#dateformat: {{CURRENTDAY}} {{CURRENTMONTHNAME}} {{CURRENTYEAR}} | ISO 8601 }} → 2018-01-06 or
  2. {{#dateformat: {{CURRENTYEAR}}-{{CURRENTMONTH}}-{{CURRENTDAY}} | mdy }} → 2018-01-6
The above (and the other possibilities that I tried that didn't work) along with the samples on the Magic Words page lead me to believe that your format must either look like YYYY-MM-DD (with the hyphens, spaces don't work nor do snuggled-up digits) or have the name of the month written out (in full or abbreviated form). For further reading (a little more dense), you might want to look at the PHP documentation for date format strings. I do not know if all those various possibilities will work, but some of them do match up with what I found by trial and error, and MediaWiki being written in PHP, it makes sense that the parser functions (both {{#dateformat: }} and {{#time: }}) would depend on that info somehow.
Whew. Smells like worms in here. :) Hope that helps! Sethladan 04:18, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

spot the typo ... :)

Just adding the Eastern Gondor maps and I seem to have a typo someplace in the JS code for maps.

User talk:Eleazaros/coords.js

None of the tooltips are popping up!

Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 02:45, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
You sure know how to make a man feel needed! :) Turns out it was the double zeros that was mucking up the system. I guess 0.1 is a number, but 00.1 isn't (and ditto with 3.9 and 03.9). Is the new LI stuff up on Bullroarer? How's that all looking? Excited to be getting back in some when summer rolls around! Sethladan 03:22, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
Thanks! Looks like I always manage to find the "unique" way to break something!
Yes, see: Legendary Item Imbuement system for a start -- the full release notes description is there.
Lots of discussion in the BR forum, as usual mostly complaints. :)
Since we just upgraded to Build 1.1, things have already begun to be tweaked.
Start of new Region pages: Eastern Gondor - keeps changing with each build, more stuff being added.
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 15:57, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Another needle for you to find

There is an item "stuck" in the patrolling inventory - Item: Steed of narie.
This particular entry has been created, moved, restored, re-created so many times (and by so many people) that the basic item which needs to be marked does not come up through normal searches.
I don't have the knowledge of MediaWiki to know how/where to look for this in the MW database.
You seem to have the magic touch to finding these obscure entries, if you have a chance can you take a look and see if you can find it?
  • Other than that -- how's life?
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 15:32, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Attention WikiNerds - World Closures - Gilrain is closing!

Note that Gilrain is one of the EU worlds shutting down.

Many WIKI Editors have accounts on that world.

See: World Closure Announcement - 3 August 2015

Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 09:22, 4 August 2015 (UTC)