Template talk:Skill

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Prefix

If I use the "Create new skill" page, it generates a page name with "Quest:" prefix? Do we want a prefix for skill pages? --Goingbald 01:52, 6 December 2010 (EST)

Tested this and it seems like this has been fixed, perhaps by Rogue our mystery angel? I personally would not want a prefix for skill pages at all, but I know there are others with different opinions. --Ravanel 12:52, 2 March 2011 (EST)

Miscellaneous section?

When I revamped the Ardour skill page today, I wasn't really happy with putting Legacy enhancements and the changes to Flurry and True Heroics under Tactical Information. To me, Tactical Information is more about how and when a skill is useful in a solo or group setting. I'd personally like having another headline where you could put everything that doesn't fit in under Effects, Traits, Tactical Information and Lore, but I'm not quite sure what it should be called. Any ideas? /Fingolwë 12:53, 2 March 2011 (EST)

How about something like "Interactions" or "Skill Relationship"? You could use this as a catch-all section to describe how the skill works with (or doesn't) other skills, effectx, legacies, and the like - the Effect bit could get moved here, as well. This would have to be distinguished from, as you described, the more "tactical" side of things, though - which skills go together well versus which skills are designed to affect each other. Sethladan 15:09, 2 March 2011 (EST)
I think I'd personally prefer it to stay separate from Effects, but I do like the "Interactions" idea. I'll try it out on some Champion skill pages and we'll see how it looks. /Fingolwë 22:53, 2 March 2011 (EST)
I sort of like "Interactions", because you can add anything there that influences the skill (even stuff like armour set bonuses); been thinking a while about a good name, but couldn't come up with one myself. Looks nice too at the Ardour page. I like that effects are not included in it - might be a bit too much (confusing). And I also like that "Tactical information" is now really only about erm... tactical information. ;-) --Ravanel 23:06, 2 March 2011 (EST)
Good summary, Rav! Looks excellent to me so far, too. Sethladan 23:26, 2 March 2011 (EST)

Sorry!

In case anyone's wondering about the recent mass edits; I was trying to add a feature specific to the Continuous Blood Rage skill I'm currently working on, but I'm not a very experienced coder and didn't know about sandboxes... I won't do it again, promise! /Fingolwë 16:48, 18 March 2011 (EDT)

Updating

Tried to streamline the code today as much as possible; there may still be some errors despite all my testing, heh. It looks like I cut out a lot, but functionality should still be the same, with two exceptions:

  • Added a |nocat = parameter, per Eirik's suggestion (see also his post on the forum) - putting anything in this line will prevent categories from being added. This is great if you're ever using the template for testing or demonstration purposes.
  • Reversed Goingbald's "force trait links" change. I hate doing this without discussing - sorry! - but it caused display issues when traits and skills have the same name. On Bard's Arrow, for example, it would show "Requires: Bard's Arrow (trait) Trait equipped." Seemed better to me to just manually add/pipe the links as needed.

Have also talked to Rogue about the merits of having separate dmg and dmgtype parameters, and it doesn't seem like they need to be distinct like this. I'm going to see if I can collapse these (move everything from dmgtype into dmg) across all the skills, then I'll take the type parameters out of the template, too. Still don't know if there's any consensus for how to write the damage - Rav's been doing "...", EoD added a formula, I think I've done "level-dependent" for the most part...oy. :)

Hoping to continue with lots more skill improvements over the next few weeks, so please kick me if I'm messing up your work! Sethladan 14:27, 1 September 2011 (EDT)

Spacing

All skills should have a bit more space in between the title and the next text below (usually "Melee Skill", "Tactical Skill" or something of the likes), much like the space in between the power cost and the cooldown or the description and what comes before or after this. I don't know how to do this myself and I don't want to mess things up. If someone could help that would be great. --Ravanel (talk) 16:59, 26 September 2011 (EDT)

(almost) All skills seem to have a totally different style. Who wants to do that? (no, not me!) :p --EoD (talk) 21:50, 26 September 2011 (EDT)
I told Rav to post in here because I'd be eventually working my way through the skills, heh. Looks like I made the right decision waiting for RoI to launch before continuing apace. :-P Sethladan 22:20, 26 September 2011 (EDT)
Do you consider to use {{new}} while using the new skill styles? Amphoras worked quite a lot on this and RoI would be a good time to introduce it :) --EoD (talk) 02:17, 27 September 2011 (EDT)
Oi, you guys good luck with the styles. I didn't see much change for the Lore-master, luckily. ^^ As for my former comment, that one still seems to be the same; all skills should have a little bit of space there. --Ravanel (talk) 05:17, 27 September 2011 (EDT)
It seems like there is spacing in between all those grey words now, though ("Tactical Skill", "Induction:", "Resistance" etc, those). It shouldn't be like that. There only should be a break below the title. All grey words should be tighter together.--Ravanel (talk) 05:43, 27 September 2011 (EDT)
Update here: I was able to get the grey lines to clump together pretty nicely! You won't notice a difference yet because I'm still testing other stuff: am having a little more trouble with appropriately spreading out other sections of the tooltip, and making sure that all the extra "space" doesn't pile up when some sections don't appear. It'll take a little while, but I'll get there - promise! Sethladan 16:37, 29 September 2011 (EDT)
Sounds good, I'm looking forward to the result. Thanks for putting effort in this! --Ravanel (talk) 14:00, 2 October 2011 (EDT)
Re: {{new}} - if you guys have it working, we could try integrating skills into the new "structure." I haven't followed the development you guys are doing, so I'm not sure how much is intact from when you (EoD) and I planned it out months ago. Sethladan 20:13, 27 September 2011 (EDT)
Haven't done anything after those "months ago". I considered it working and therefore done ;). Amphoras added some more features to support skills. --EoD (talk) 15:27, 28 September 2011 (EDT)
It seems to be working ok. We can use it for effects and traits as well if that's needed/wanted. Tooltip should also be able to be updated to work with it until all the new item templates are done (some are started/pretty much done, shouldn't be too much work to get the rest done/finished, but I'm too busy just now to finish them off at the moment). Amphoras (talkTalk to me!) 15:45, 28 September 2011 (EDT)

Template:Training price

I just wrote that nice template which calculates the training price of any skill depending on the level. I it helps! --EoD (talk) 15:26, 28 September 2011 (EDT)

Colors

Some of the new or changed Minstrel skills are using more colors in their tooltips. (Other classes may be affected but I can only speak to the one I've been looking at.) They tend to describe interactions with stances in Cyan text, and explain some of the skill's effects in Orange. They aren't formulaic though, so I'm not sure if it would fit well in the template. Is it important that these colors be included in the wiki? An example of one of the more colorful ones: I typed in the Coda of Resonance at Coda, including the extra information under the skill description. In the game the skill looks like:

Elinnea (talk) 16:19, 29 September 2011 (EDT)

Thanks for the description and the screenshot! Having the colors in there would look "prettier" than a wall of description-colored text, so I'd definitely like to see that added in, at least if there's some degree of consistency across skills (whether Minstrel only or all classes). Working on it! :) Sethladan 16:34, 29 September 2011 (EDT)

Post RoI Update

Well, I've been working on this for a while, and I'm finally at the point where, if I test it any more, I may as well just point all skills towards my sandbox, heh. Rise of Isengard introduced a lot of new colorful text sections in the skill tooltips, and I've done my best to reflect that in the template. This means, unfortunately, quite a number of new parameters that I've already documented on Boilerplate:Skill and will be updating on the relevant pages.

Summary of changes:

Spacing!
The text on the tooltip should now be spaced similarly to what you see in the game. This adds quite a layer of complexity to the template, but I have done my best to make it clear which parts belong in which single-spaced "section" of the tooltip.
Included in this is that all lines in the same "section" should now appear much closer together. This was mentioned previously by Ravanel regarding the "grey" lines, but should now be in place throughout. If there are lines that should be more spread out, feel free to make a note here.
ALSO included in this is a little extra space between the skill's and the first line of text below. Note that, in the game, "Characteristic" appears closer to the top of the tooltip than lines on active skills; this is reflected here, as well.
Reorganization
A few parameters have been moved around to match the order they appear in the game tooltips and to fit in the new "sectioning" setup. If something's showing up out of place (before or after something that it shouldn't), please note it!
Deprecation/Obsolescence
Five parameters (|revival, |revival-duration, and the damage types) should not be used anymore.
  • Since revival effects are now standardized, please use |revived (which Ravanel previously added and I updated) to cover that info.
  • I discussed with Rogue a while ago, and we couldn't really find any reason to have a separate parameter for damage type. Please add all damage information onto the dmg1, 2, and 3 lines.
I had also hoped to remove the code for |attribute and make it obsolete because I couldn't find any skills that used it. I haven't checked Monster Play skills, though, so it's definitely possible that there's something out there with a green "attribute" tag on it. If you know of/find any, please point them out here, otherwise I'll delete this parameter during my next update (once I've reviewed as many skills as I can confirm/update).
New Parameters
As above, many new parameters have been added. They are, in order of appearance:
  • |desc-attrib
  • |note
  • |attrib0, |attrib0-desc, |attrib0-duration
  • |combat-only
  • |cyan, |cyan-duration
  • |orange
  • |fellowship-range, |fellowship, |fellowship-duration
  • |attrib5
  • |ic-duration
  • |attrib6, |attrib6-duration, |attrib6-combat
  • |orange2
  • |critical-target, |critical, |devastating, |both
Again, these are documented better on the boilerplate. A lot of them are only used in one or very few cases. I (highly) suspect that Turbine may clean up some tooltips in their next update, and I will rejoice in the streets if/when we get to clear out some of these one-off exceptions that clutter up the template, heh.
Future Revisions
Once all skills are updated with the new parameters, I hope we can come back and delete the five (six?) deprecated items mentioned above.
As I just said, there will likely be some fine-tuning to do in the near future should Turbine clean the game tooltips up somewhat.
{{Tooltip}} is now live on Lotro-Wiki, so adapting this template to use that will allow us to take advantage of pop-up functionality like we currently see for items. This should be quite exciting. :)
Almost all the <li> lines in this template use a style="color:xxx" code. At some point, these could be adapted to use CSS classes ("class=xxx") instead. Also, I'd like to do some cross-browser checking to make sure all the colors are being displayed properly. I suspect that some/all of the named colors ("orange, cyan, limegreen, etc) will be especially susceptible to variation.

As of this writing, there are over a hundred thousand (100,000) jobs pending on Lotro-Wiki, so it make take some time for these changes to spread out to all skills. If necessary, do a blank edit (open a page for editing, then save it without making any changes) to force an update and see any new effects.

Whee! Almost as long as the Rise of Isengard patch notes themselves! Feedback and complaints always welcome. :) Sethladan 22:17, 6 October 2011 (EDT)

A few hours later, while tossing and turning in bed, it occurred to me that I left out a very important part of the update, heh. The necessary CSS should be in place now to make these tooltips look as I claimed. Whew! Good night again. Sethladan 02:46, 7 October 2011 (EDT)

Bugs

I applaud your hard work and thorough documentation. I tested it out on Anthem of War, and as far as I can tell the new template parameters are working well, except that the range and radius appear to have vanished. --Elinnea (talk) 10:57, 7 October 2011 (EDT)

Thanks for pointing this out! After being stumped about this for most of the morning, I realized I sort of misunderstood how the #if statements worked. Shuffled things around a little and I think I've got it fixed now. (This actually makes things ever-so-slightly less chaotic in the code, so I'm thrilled to have made this change!) Please continue to post if anything doesn't show up in the right place.
(for the curious): I set up the blocks/sections of text to appear only if certain parameters were filled. In the case of the lines of grey text near the top, that "block" will only show up (including the .7em of padding at the top) if |range, |type, or |time were defined. In my initial edit, I'd written that as "#if:{{{type|{{{range|{{{time|}}} }}} }}}" but because |type is always defined (just blank in many cases), the parser stopped there and returned false instead of checking the alternates, so the whole grey-line span went up in smoke. Changed this (and all other instances of this #if business) to "#if:{{{range|}}} {{{type|}}} {{{time|}}}" so that if -any- of them are non-blank, then the block will show. Live and learn, heh.
And thank you to EoD for adding the time on 3:00-in-the-morning signature. :) Sethladan 13:10, 7 October 2011 (EDT)

It's much better now, but a skill with a Resistance but nothing else in the grey header is not showing up correctly. See Major Ballad, which should have the Cry Resistance indicated in both of its forms. --Elinnea (talk) 16:10, 7 October 2011 (EDT)

Fixed! Keep them coming. :) Sethladan 16:20, 7 October 2011 (EDT)

Two small things: the Fellowship attribute is showing up in white instead of light green, as in Improved Chord of Salvation. Also, the tooltips in the game label the cost line as "Cost:" instead of "Costs:".--Elinnea (talk) 15:28, 8 October 2011 (EDT)

One more: the Channel Duration is on its lonesome in Song of Aid and is not showing up. I'm getting so good at breaking peoples' code. >:] --Elinnea (talk) 15:52, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
All three should be fixed now. It's not so much breaking my code as it is being ever so much more astute than I was, heheh. Fortunately this is all easy stuff to take care of. :) Sethladan 17:52, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
The Fellowship Duration parameter needs the same color fix: Improved Story of Courage --Elinnea (talk) 18:13, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
Yyyyyup. I totally could have seen that when I corrected the lined immediately above it. Oy. Sorry! Sethladan 18:32, 8 October 2011 (EDT)

(Copied from User talk:Sethladan for the sake of keeping {{Skill}} info together)

The line for "cyan-duration" is showing up as white rather than dark green, and missing the "Duration:" text over at Improved Seeking Blade. -- Elinnea (talk) 17:32, 24 October 2011 (EDT)

Should be fixed now - you're my favorite bug-catcher! :) Typo on my part: "darkgreeen" instead of "darkgreen," and totally overlooked the "Duration: " bit. Sethladan 20:01, 24 October 2011 (EDT)

One more one more note, I guess. I noticed that the Rune-keeper skills use the require line to add in the Attunement requirement, but it comes out in green instead of yellow. Is there any way for the template to notice the attunement template filling that line and make the text yellow instead of green? An example is at Improved Sustaining Bolt (which is kind of a funky skill tooltip in other ways too). -- Elinnea (talk) 19:49, 25 October 2011 (EDT)

Urgh, and Improved Rousing Words puts the attunement requirement below the Channelled Skill note instead of above it, where it wants to be. And the "Every 1 second" adds an extra 's' at the end since in every other case it would be plural. I tried making an Improved Prelude to Hope skill but was defeated by a random white-ish line it decided to put in the middle of everything. I think these Rune-keeper skills might be worse than the Minstrel ones. Or maybe it's just too late at night. Maybe it'll all make sense in the morning. >.< -- Elinnea (talk) 23:35, 25 October 2011 (EDT)
Now I'm starting to get really self-conscious about scrawling all over your talk page, but over at Shield Tactics I couldn't get the gambit requirement to show up without also putting text in one of the other categories in that section (attune, channeledskill, toggle, critical-target). There's also a "Clears All Gambits" line beneath that, which could either be its own parameter or just an added line to the requirement like I did there. I'll just, uh, keep putting stuff I notice here and you can think about it whenever you can. No rush or anything. >.>
I suppose I could put some of these things on the template talk page instead. Hmm. -- Elinnea (talk) 11:52, 27 October 2011 (EDT)
No self-consciousness needed! You can feel free to post here or on Template talk:Skill - it's usually the guy who made the last major revision that's accountable for cleaning up his mess, heh. I finally have a day to myself, so I'll take a look at all these and see what can be done. :) Sethladan 11:34, 28 October 2011 (EDT)

Most of this should be fixed now:

  • "Requires:" will now appear if on its own (typo on my part).
  • "Requires:" line will be the same color as "Attunes" if main-category is set to "Rune-keeper".
  • Channeled Skill now appears below "Requires:" in all cases.
  • Attrib-every should now display "Every 1 Second" if it's set to 1, and with "Every x Seconds" if set to any number higher.

Still missing some fine tuning for the "funky skill tooltip (Improved Sustaining Bolt). Also tried to make the "Requires:" line display things differently depending on what's in there, but my favorite weapon to this end (#titleparts) doesn't work when you're calling templates in the text. Alas. For Warden skills, it might be less mess to just manually add " <br /> Clears All Gambits" after the requirement instead of adding yet another parameter. Sethladan 15:17, 28 October 2011 (EDT)

Pointing out a couple of issues for myself to take care of:

  • Track Treasure: "Toggle Skill" should be spaced from the attribute. This means collapsing all the "mini-spans" in the latter part of the template, sigh.
  • Template should probably be written to use divs for sectioning instead of spans, depending on if any browsers add linebreaks after divs. If so, then spans with classes need to be used instead of all spans in the skill div: The current situation makes it hard for people to add exceptions for colors, etc. Sethladan 22:28, 31 October 2011 (EDT)
  • Cry of Vengeance: Shouldn't be a break after "Immediate." Sethladan 19:48, 12 November 2011 (EST)
Hopefully these are all fixed now. Only took a month to do it, heh. Sethladan 14:25, 3 December 2011 (EST)

In the Warden gambit-building skills (Shield-bash, for example) the Adds: Gambit line should be beneath the Cost line. I tried some fiddling but couldn't get anything in the template to let it show correctly. -- Elinnea (talk) 23:45, 3 November 2011 (EDT)

I added three new parameters for this: gambit-add, gambit-requires and gambit-clear. Should look the same way it does in-game now. :) //Fingolwë (talk) 09:38, 5 November 2011 (EDT)

Missing Attribute Green Line

Found a missing green line between "Apply to target on critical" and "Duration: 5s". It skips it with the current template. Starbursty (talk) 18:29, 26 December 2011 (EST)

Also, we don't have the line "Starts Warband Manoeuvre" either. The | conjunction line only shows "Starts Fellowship Maneuvre" -- Starbursty (talk) 06:29, 27 December 2011 (EST)

Rune-keeper Affinity

Some Rune-keeper skills now have a small paragraph in cyan, above the description:

Affinity - Lightning (or Fire or Frost)
Affinity skills will change their effects when you use an elemental skill (frost, fire, lightning.)

It's shared across a number of skills and currently has no place on the template, without manually adding a cyan color to part of the description parameter. It seems like a good candidate for a new parameter. -- Elinnea (talk) 11:17, 14 March 2012 (EDT)

Added! Use the parameter | affinity = with one of Lightning, Fire, or Frost, and it will display whatever you put in there along with the additional text. Hope this does the trick. :) Sethladan 19:18, 14 May 2012 (EDT)
Hooray, thank you! It seems to be working fine. -- Elinnea (talk) 09:31, 15 May 2012 (EDT)

Changes for RoR

I added a few parameters for the mounted combat skills coming with Riders of Rohan. I hate to contribute to template bloat, but I guess for a completely new game system it's acceptable. Changes:

  • discipline parameter: Type in the name of the discipline (Red Dawn, Rohirrim, or Riddermark) and the template fills in the blue "Mounted Discpline" line, the small paragraph about mounted disciplines, and the cyan title of the discipline. This is only used by the three discipline skills, for each class.
  • Mount Power and Mount Power Per Second are added as recognized input for the cost parameters.
  • cost3 and cost3-type parameters: The same as the other two, but quite a few mounted skills require three cost lines.
  • mounted-trait-req: Type a link to the War-steed trait that is required for the skill. This works just like trait-req but the display is a bit different.

The only major issue I ran into was the spacing between the three sections of the discipline parameter. I tried fiddling with some lineheights and paddings, and quickly got out of my depth in html and css. If anybody knows how that could be made to look a little better, give a hoot.

I welcome feedback or complaints, if this causes any bugs to pop up, in mounted skills or ordinary ones. I'll be trying a couple samples and keeping my eyes open for problems. -- Elinnea (talk) 23:42, 9 October 2012 (EDT)

Oh yeah, one other note. I put the discipline parameter just above the description so that it would come underneath the Resistance line of the tooltip. I still think that's a display bug in Bullroarer, but just in case it isn't, those two will show up in the correct order.
Here's an example page I've made with using the template changes: Discipline: Rohirrim (Guardian). -- Elinnea (talk) 00:25, 10 October 2012 (EDT)


War-steed Power Cost

Hi, I was wondering why there are switches for cost parameters with no default? I've updated Rally the Riders (Rohirrim) with 'War-steed Power' instead of 'Mount Power', as I saw when I went training these skills, but it's not showing because not part of the switch. I'd be tempted to trim the cost sections from

{{#switch:{{{cost1-type|}}}
   | Fervour
   | Focus = <li style="color:yellowgreen;">Cost: {{{cost1}}} {{{cost1-type}}}</li>
   | Morale
   | Morale Per Second
   | Power
   | Power Per Second
   | Mount Power
   | Mount Power Per Second
   | Venom = <li style="color:limegreen;">Cost: {{{cost1}}} {{{cost1-type}}}</li>
}}

to only

{{#switch:{{{cost1-type|}}}
   | Focus    = <li style="color:yellowgreen;">Cost: {{{cost1}}} {{{cost1-type}}}</li>
   | default# = <li style="color:limegreen;">Cost: {{{cost1}}} {{{cost1-type}}}</li>
}}

but I'm not sure it there was another issue discussed that I have missed. If it needs to be kept, then it seems now the new term is 'War-steed' instead of 'Mount' for horse skills. -- Goingbald (talk) 14:39, 27 January 2013 (EST)

I think you're absolutely right, except that Fervour also needs to be listed with the yellowgreen colour. My suspicion is that the switch was set up when there were only a couple different things that were being used as skill costs, so the default wasn't set up for future expansion. Now it has become a pain to have to update the parameter every time a new cost wording is added or changed. It looks like nobody has objected to the proposition since January... so I'll do a sandbox test (because so many pages will be affected) and then use your fix. Thanks. -- Elinnea (talk) 16:17, 22 June 2013 (EDT)
Hum, well, some playing around makes it clear why a #default was not used. It causes a "Cost: " to print on the line whether or not there's any cost or cost type filled in for the parameter. If we use a default line, we need another #if check there. That seems kind of clumsy, but it might be better than having to hard code every cost type. I'll fiddle with it a bit more. -- Elinnea (talk) 16:39, 22 June 2013 (EDT)
I should really learn to finish what I'm doing before coming to add micro-updates. Well, I believe this works now. For the sake of documenting what I'm doing:
{{#switch:{{{cost1-type|}}}
   | = 
   | Fervour
   | Focus = <li style="color:yellowgreen;">Cost: {{{cost1}}} {{{cost1-type}}}</li>
   | #default = <li style="color:limegreen;">Cost: {{{cost1}}} {{{cost1-type}}}</li>
}}
The first line causes the switch to print nothing if there's nothing in the cost-type parameter. If there is something, it should fall through to whichever other case applies to it. If there's something in the cost parameter but not cost-type it will not print either, but I consider that acceptable since the cost always has a type associated with it. (At least so far!)
As always, I will keep an eye out for something going terribly wrong with the skills after this change. -- Elinnea (talk) 16:57, 22 June 2013 (EDT)

Change to be tooltip

Hi, I've done a change so the skill can pop as a tooltip, but I have a display bug on the page itself when there is a toc to display, it makes a hole between the skill name and its description, the size of the toc, if the tag {{toc-right}} is displayed after the Skill, there is no more hole, any idea? For example,  Words of Courage. --Goingbald (talk) 17:46, 24 June 2013 (EDT)

I'll use __NOTOC__ while updating. --Goingbald (talk) 18:09, 24 June 2013 (EDT)
I notice that the captain skill category has been added to this page, so it seems like the skill template is leaking categories like the effect one used to do. We finally solved that one over at Template_talk:Effect#Category_Leakage. It looks like the skill template will need a similar change. -- Elinnea (talk) 20:11, 24 June 2013 (EDT)
Seems fixed :) --Goingbald (talk) 21:56, 24 June 2013 (EDT)
Yay! I like (relatively) easy fixes. -- Elinnea (talk) 22:05, 24 June 2013 (EDT)

I really don't like making so many repeated edits to this template, because it is linked to so many pages and sets off chains of wiki jobs each time. But I'm afraid we're going to have to undo these edits and fix the skills pages first, and then add the tooltip capability back in.

The reason is that any skill page without the disambigpage parameter (almost all of them, since we haven't been using it until now) is not automatically categorized. To update them we then need to find all the skills pages, but now they're not in any skills category. For things like Minstrel class skills that's fine, because we have an index of them. But there are categories like Category:Angmarim Bloodletter Skills, which as far as I know are not documented anywhere other than the actual skill pages. If they're not in their category, there's no way to identify them unless I actually know the name of each skill. I'm sure something is going to be missed if we do it this way.

I wouldn't mind doing this myself, but I would feel better if we (Goingbald, Magill - anyone else who wants to have input) could make a decision about what's going to happen next before we make any more changes to the skills template. -- Elinnea (talk) 21:06, 29 June 2013 (EDT)

I've started chasing down Bot information -- it appears that, in the past at least, User:Amphoras had one or more. So, I'll also ask him. He has been around a couple of times lately. See: Lotro-Wiki.com:Bots and Category:Bots BoD (User:EoD) being another, however I haven't noticed him around for some time.
  • I've begun collecting the changes which need to be made so that someone can bot them: User_talk:Magill-bot
  • The skill and effects only pop-up if you use the syntax{{:Cry of the Chorus (Effect)|mode=imlink}}
I have changed Minstrel Skills#Anthems to use the pop-up tooltips... and have "fixed" each of the corresponding descriptions and effects to also use the corresponding pop-up tool tips -- using mode=imlink to insert the icons in the text lines... They could simply use mode=link to provide the pop-up on mouse-over but without the icon displaying in-line.
  • The one thing I could not get to work -- as I recall, long ago when I first updated the Moors pages (2011) ?Seth? managed to get the text to display butt against the Icon instead of line wrapping UNDER it as the second line does (Anthem of the free peoples). There is a "float" parameter in the Template:Tooltip but it doesn't appear to propagate -- or at least I could not find the appropriate syntax, and it's only partially documented.
I'll see if I User:Sethladan can remember...unless anyone else does!
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 13:39, 30 June 2013 (EDT)
Hi, if you can give the changes that need to be made, then I can try and look for the bot stuff and see if I still have it installed. Eg. if you show what is on the pages now, and what it needs to be changed to. I will try and find the bot documentation as well in case you want to make more changes yourself. Amphoras (talkTalk to me!) 13:55, 30 June 2013 (EDT)
If this worked, this should be written by AmphorasBot. AmphorasBot (talk) 15:32, 30 June 2013 (EDT)
Looks like it worked... I have started collecting the "work to be done" over at User_talk:Magill-bot.
Minstrel Skills#Anthems contains links to the Skills and Effects which I have modified so far. I believe the changes are the same for both.
I have also begun working with pywikipediabot/Mac ... which seems to have some issues, not the least of which is an SVN error on download, and instructions that were obviously written for an existing system, not a virgin install. Nothing show stopping (I don't think) but annoying while trying to update MediaWiki's documentation: Manual:Pywikipediabot/Mac
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 01:16, 1 July 2013 (EDT)
Really like the tooltip changes so far. Took a look at the minstrel anthems and I particularly liked how Each of the Minstrel's specializations give access to a different Anthem skill:
pops up with the 3 different versions (depending on stance). Something like that makes it lot easier to compare the effect of the different stances on a skill. We might want to include the same thing for those skills that also have different effects while mounted.
Given that a lot of existing skills are not categorized, does the new template handle categorization yet?
Also besides skills specific to a given class, how are we categorizing skills? what is the skill category tree?
Based on personal observations, I would think the skill category tree would look something like this:
  • Skills
    • Player Skills (non-class specific or shared between a subset of classes) (i.e. armour skills, weapon proficiency skills, milestone/reputation/store travel skills)
    • Elf, Man, Dwarf, Hobbit Skills categories
    • Monster Skills (non-class specific or shared between a subset of classes)
    • Warden, Champion, Minstrel, etc Skills categories (for skills specific to a single class)
    • Orc Reaver, Warg Stalker, etc Skills categories (for skills specific to a single monster class)
      • for all of the above classes if we wanted to get more specific, we could have Active and Passive Skills sub-categories
For those of us who have not learned how to use bots, what are the exact changes (in template fields) between the old template and the new one if we wanted to update skill entries?
Seems like the easiest way to update existing skills might be to take the new template and copy relevant details from the old page entries into it.
Since I am not knowledgable about template editing, just let me know when the final template changes are done so can start updating old skill pages.
-Shardis (talk) 13:33, 2 July 2013 (EDT)
The skills categorization tree is actually very firmly in place. If you want to look through the structure, see Category:Skills. It's an illusion that most of the skills aren't categorized at the moment. They were all categorized a week ago, but right now the categorization isn't working because of the disambigpage parameter. Once all the skills are updated, they will fall back into their correct categories. This is what I was trying to say a few comments back.
The updates needed on skills pages are not actually very difficult. Magill has written out what has to happen at User talk:Magill-bot. Here's an example of a skill page update: Invigorate update. I don't know about botting either, so I do my human bot work by working through pages manually. :)
I don't believe anyone has replied to my question before. Admittedly it was buried in a long comment, and now this one is again, hehe. I'll add some bolding this time... Unless someone objects, I'm going to undo the template changes so we can fix all the skills we need. I know you're all working on bots and things, but in the meantime almost all of our skills are broken on the wiki and that makes me sad. -- Elinnea (talk) 14:08, 2 July 2013 (EDT)
Lol... I would love if Amphoras can come up with some info on Botting in the past... I've spending time over a MediaWiki.org trying to get pywikipediapot working... it seems to be pretty buggy just to install! I've documented two game-stopping bugs so far for them. It doesn't seem to be rocket science, but it does require Python knowledge! Sigh. Manual:Pywikipediabot/Use on third-party wikis Once I get the code itself working, getting the Bot to do "useful things" should be comparatively simple.
I've left messages for the "old botters" Lotro-Wiki.com:Bots and so far he's the only one who has responded. If anyone has an email address for RTC or EoD or Artifact, please shoot them an email and see if they'll come back with some info....
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 18:34, 2 July 2013 (EDT)
As far as undoing the template changes -- the main thing is DON'T LOOSE THEM!!! I'm hoping that I can get the basic bot stuff working by the end of the week -- then it just becomes a Logic issue. I just got an email with the latest work-around, so we'll see what happens next.
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 18:34, 2 July 2013 (EDT)
Oh, definitely, I would make multiple backups before undoing anything, and the page history should still be there. The new skills format is going over so well. :D
I probably won't get much wiki-ing done this week, because of the holiday here in the States and I have relatives coming into town. But I might do something about this later tonight or tomorrow. -- Elinnea (talk) 21:11, 2 July 2013 (EDT)
I used the bot on Windows, so maybe that's the difference, but it was reasonably easy to set up. Most of it was just downloading the files and extracting them. I think the only things I actually had to edit were the family file and the user-config file. For both of those I think I just modified one of the existing files. EoD may have helped with it as well, I don't remember. If you want, I could upload the stuff I have and you could look at it and see if any of it is of any use? Amphoras (talkTalk to me!) 23:28, 2 July 2013 (EDT)
 Good news -- I have all of the mechanical parts of the Bot working (family file and user-config), and am apparently successfully, logging in the bot. The problems I was running into turned out to be poor documentation, especially assumptions being made about the sequence in which things were to be done and the resulting interactions. So, at least now, the Mac installation documentation is correct. (It hadn't been updated for several releases of OSX.)
What I need to know now is which specific script gets used to do what, everything is oriented to the main Wikipedia sites. Not being a Python programmer, I do not know if all the scripts in the download contain some kind of preview mechanism nor how to restrict a script to a specific set of pages. I'm guessing that "replace.py" is going to be the basis for making changes.... but it's not obvious if that is true or what to do.
Thanks for the offer. It would be good to see your config and family files... and if you have any specific script(s) you used to drive edits.
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 00:40, 3 July 2013 (EDT)
Ooh, I just realized an alternative to undoing the template changes. I could work through the list of uncategorized pages to find all the missing skills. That would be less disruptive for all the skills that are already being updated to the new format. It'll hold me over until all this bot business is worked out. Don't mind me, I'm just making plans with myself over here. :P -- Elinnea (talk) 13:02, 3 July 2013 (EDT)
Here is my family file: https://copy.com/PnZJboJDU8e2 and the user-config file: https://copy.com/H1WsiDfijrt0
Most of the time I used replace.py to make changes. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Pywikipediabot/replace.py gives some example of the different commands that you can use. Most of the time when I did it, I would use a command like:

replace.py -transcludes:Effect "{{Effect" "{{Effect\n|mode={{{mode|}}}" -excepttext:"{{{mode|}}}" -excepttitle:"User" -summary:"Add mode parameter for effects" -always -pt:10

This tells the bot to run on all pages that use the Effect template. It will add in the mode parameter right at the start of the effect. The excepttext and excepttitle commands tell the bot not to make the replacement on pages that already have the mode parameter, or on any pages with User in the title (eg. the User namespace where people may be testing things). -summary sets the edit summary that will appear if you want to override the default. -always tells the bot to make the changes without asking first. Normally, the bot shows the change in the command prompt, and you have to confirm each change before the bot makes the edit. With this command you can tell it just to make the edit without checking. This is very useful when you are doing something like this where there are hundreds of pages to be edited. As long as you are sure that the replacement you have specified is narrow enough that it won't cause any problems, you can use this command. Even when you are sure, its best to still check in the recent changes that nothing bad is happening every so often anyway. The pt or putthrottle command limits how often the bot can make an edit. In the example, the bot can edit at most once every 10 seconds. You can use this to avoid making edits too quickly when the wiki is busy. In my experience, the wiki is fine with it set to 1 second, I might even have set it to 0 before, I don't remember. I've never noticed any problems on the wiki while using the bot before anyway, and no one else reported any issues either.
There are more commands on that page. You can set the bot to run on a list of pages, specific pages, namespaces, etc. You can use regex expressions in the replacements and some of the other commands as well.
For extra fixes, I know EoD had a file for this, I think it is on RingTailCat's bot page if you want to look at it.
Hopefully this helps, any other stuff just ask and I'll try and help. Amphoras (talkTalk to me!) 13:17, 3 July 2013 (EDT)
Ok.. thanks. Configs are the same, and I think the family files are also... mine was generated by the script: generate_family_files.py... Which actually has to be run when you have no user-conf.py file... which is apparently a bug.
RTC's bot page indicates that he apparently had a modified version of replace.py -- replace_lotro.py. I found his email address and asked him to send me a copy of it.
Other than that, my first attempt to edit a single page simply throws errors from replace.py -- User_talk:Magill-bot simply using "replace.py" instead of replace_lotro.py as indicated. Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 00:17, 5 July 2013 (EDT)
I just got RTC's revised replace script, plus an explanation : User:Magill-bot. As I am setting up to try this out, I discovered, lol, that a lot of these have gotten updated by hand by some masochist!!! And I thought I was the only one that crazy... At any rate, as soon as I find a couple to test on, I'll fire things off.
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 01:16, 8 July 2013 (EDT)

New Parameter

Since the HD update we now have class skills that come from four sources:

  • Intrinsic class skills that are awarded at appropriate level
  • The two skills that are unlocked when one of the three trait tree specializations is selected from the trait-tree
  • Those that come from traits in the trees
  • And those that come from trait set-bonus' (only available to VIP's unless purchased from store)

I propose we add a new parameter 'source' to the template to indicate the source of the skill and allowing the template to generate a uniform section of additional information about the source of the skill. For example:
 == Source ==

  1. This skill is granted automatically when you reach level 39
  2. This skill is unlocked by choosing specialization Solitary Thunder
  3. This skill is unlocked by selecting Solitary Thunder trait  Ceaseless Argument.
  4. This skill is unlocked by gaining Solitary Thunder trait set-bonus  Static Surge.

Snarpel (talk) 00:26, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

I like the idea of coming up a consistent way of representing the various skill sources. Although I wonder if it might not be better to put it in the boilerplate, rather than adding a new parameter to the template. The Skill template has traditionally been set up this way, with the basic class information, effects, interactions, etc. all available for copy-paste from the boilerplate so you can insert whatever is appropriate for that particular skill, and leave out anything that doesn't apply. It wouldn't be too difficult to remove the training price line and insert one of the four options you've written out. I ought to do an overhaul of that boilerplate anyhow, since there are some things that no longer apply (like the case of Improved versions of skills.)
The Trait template has a similar thing to what you're suggesting: it takes the class and automatically creates a header with the class information. I've never been very keen on this: it takes away flexibility, and makes it difficult to change the layout of a page without digging into the template and affecting every other trait page on the wiki.
These are just my thoughts - I wonder do you have good reasons for wanting to make it part of the template? -- Elinnea (talk) 15:07, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
My only comment would be -- Are there really STILL any level granted skills? I don't have any characters handy to check, but my understanding was that they all were going (went) away. However, I know that there are other changes that were supposed to happen which did not, or were only half implemented. As I recall, the elimination of Travel Rations was one such ... they were supposed to go away, but I believe, only the need for them did. I know my hunter still has a stack of them. Guess I'll have to see if he uses any. Nope, the stack doesn't decrement.
Other than that, I would tend to agree with Elinnea -- put that section in the
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 00:39, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
Oh yes, there are still level granted skills. Now you earn them automatically as you level - they appear on your hotbar, rather than having to pay money to a class trainer. But you can still see them at the class trainer on any character who hasn't leveled up to them yet. -- Elinnea (talk) 01:18, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
Agreed with the above; this is great boilerplate material. Standardization is always a worthy goal, but shoehorning two new parameters into the template for such a small section would likely be less editor-friendly, as Elin mentioned. It's also bad practice as you start having a template do too much at once. Template:Skill is already convoluted enough (for which I am partly guilty). Sethladan 02:13, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
Good point, adding to the complexity of what is already pretty convoluted code is certainly not desirable. I have never actually used a boilerplate myself (I always copy-paste an existing skill/trait/thingy) with explains why my thinking did not run in that direction but this sounds like a better solution.
On the subject of level granted skills, while skills are still granted at levels as Elinnea has said, it seems that Turbine has taken the opportunity to change the levels at which ex-legendary skills are granted. For example, my level 46 Loremaster would only have been able to summon a bog-guardian at level 56 by equipping a legendary skill, but now has it as a base skill. I don't know what the new level is for the skill or how many other level changes they made across the board to non-legendary skill as most of my toons are near level cap. Snarpel (talk) 21:58, 5 December 2013 (UTC)


Two comments:
1- Re: Copy/Paste of Boilerplate vs Copy/Paste of an existing "thing" vs using a Template.
This is always "an issue" with regard to "capturing changes." Granted, it all depends on the "awareness of the Editor" -- but that said, the "problem" is typified by this new Parameter "Item Level" which Turbine has just added to the Tooltip displays. A: Virtually no "existing" items have this parameter. B: That "parameter" was added to the Template, but the /Doc file was not updated. C) Consequently the parameter was not added to the Boilerplate. You can see what the potential problem is here. B and C have now been "matched" -- however, A is still an issue. It is something which potentially could be "botted" -- but that would fly in the face of people who believe it is not necessary to have parameters on a page if they don't have values assigned to them. (A long-time debate here at the Wiki.)
2- Level Granted Skills -- I too have most all my toons at or near level cap, so it is not obvious to me WHAT skills might still exist to be granted at "higher levels." However, in the new system, there are no longer ANY Legendary skills! They simply do not exist. Things that were "Legendary skills" are now "Bonus Skills" -- more or less. Racial Skills have not changed, all of the level gated restrictions on when you can begin earning kills toward "enmity" deeds are unchanged as are the availability of the "Slots." Skills are now "granted" based upon points applied -- and change depending upon which "tree" you are using. The situation is far more fluid than in the past. (And, "Hopefully," 12.1, next week will resolve some of the outstanding bugs/issues with the traits.
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 15:50, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
I agree that 1) is definitely an issue. It makes sense for less-experienced editors to copy code from a similar page when adding/updating - indeed, that's often what we tell people to do. This leads to a lot of outdated stuff hanging around long after we've tried to improve the standard. A big part of this is about education, obviously, making it clear what the definitive standard is for layouts/parameters. The other part is keeping those definitive standards in sync; even the best of us forget to update the preload or the doc or the boilerplate - too many moving parts in terms of documentation at times. And, yes, some bot work to weed out old stuff and add in new stuff would probably help. I'm all for simplicity and keeping parameters to a minimum, but the cost of perpetuating old code and missing parameters is not one I really want to carry around.
Re: level-granted skills - as Elinnea said, class trainers will still list all the non-trait-dependent skills that you get automatically as you level, so parking a low level character (or two in my case) of each class at a trainer makes it trivial to hop on and screen cap stuff when things change. (You could also, if you were so inclined, reset your trait specialization and then look at your Skills panel to see which skills are "default," before any tree/branch/spec bonuses kick in, although this wouldn't tell you at which level they were acquired.) Fortunately there are significantly fewer skills to deal with this way - used to be I'd have almost a thousand screenshots after checking all nine classes and the racial innates, etc. Sethladan 17:47, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Changes needed for Helm's Deep

  • "type" should now display "Skill Type:" in front of the type.
  • ... (filling out this list as I go)
  • Probably need to consider wiping out a lot of the specialized parameters in favor of just letting people manually specify colors because it's impossible to manage the infinite permutations of formatting that Turbine's using now and constantly changing. Sethladan 22:56, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
I think we need both the existing "|type:" behavior and a new "|skill_type:" field; see next section. --Calico (talk) 00:46, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Needed Changes Requested

  1. I need "|skill_type: " for class skills requiring "Skill Type: Harmful, Blade, etc." I have been tagging "Skill Type: Blah" at whatever parameter that exists before the description parameter. This is different from "|type: " which is used by the majority of skills.
  2. I need either an addition or modification for "|gambit-clear: " to utilize "Clears 1 Gambit" for Quick Recovery, etc. Currently, "|gambit-clear: " only shows "Clears All Gambits" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Starbursty (Contribs • User Talk) at 11:13, 16 April 2014.
Agree; see in-game Warden Quick Thrust for an example. This skill needs both "|type: Melee Skill" and "|skill_type: Builder". --Calico (talk) 00:46, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

A way to make a snippet/subset of a Skill tooltip (for Warden spec bonuses, etc.)

The tooltip for Warden gambit builder skills like Quick Thrust is now fairly trivial when not spec'ed, and varies greatly depending on which traits are chosen. Under the Traits section of a skill page, I would like to include a graphic representation of exactly what each trait contributes to the tooltip. Is there a clean way to use the Skill template/boilerplate to display only a small subset of the many fields, NOT including the skill name/icon? Or is there an alternate technique to accomplish the same thing? For example, refer to my sandbox page User:Calico/Sandbox-Warden under Quick Thrust / Traits to see my attempt using the existing Skill template to show only the damage buff granted by Recklessness spec. A related question is, are there other classes where the spec significantly alters a skill's tooltip, so I can use it as an example of the proper way to represent it? Thanks. --Calico (talk) 06:27, 24 May 2014 (UTC)