Talk:Virtues

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Virtues by Quest/Deed, pt. 3

Whew! I think I'm finally done.

I got a good chance to brush up on my programming skills (or lack thereof), so this wasn't just a long and tedious pursuit.

It took Discipline-icon.png Discipline, Determination-icon.png Determination, and Patience-icon.png Patience, not to mention maybe a little bit of Zeal-icon.png Zeal, but I've checked through, and I believe every virtue/deed quest is now clickable.

One thing I did in addition, besides some formatting (e.g., "Troll-Slayer" versus "Troll Slayer," as per the in-game Deed), was to change the names of similar quests to include regions. I'm not entirely happy with this, because it ends up looking redundant, saying something like:

  • (+1) (Ered Luin) Wolf-Slayer (Advanced) (Ered Luin)

But it helps to differentiate it from:

  • (+1) (The Shire) Wolf-Slayer (Advanced) (The Shire)
  • (+1) (The Trollshaws) Wolf-Slayer (Advanced) (The Trollshaws)

An example of how it used to be would be these Honor deeds:

  • (+1) Spider-Slayer (Advanced) (The Shire)
  • (+1) Spider-Slayer (Advanced) (Bree-land)
  • (+1) Spider-Slayer (Advanced) (Lone-lands)
  • (+1) Worm-Slayer (Advanced) (North Downs)
  • (+1) Worm-Slayer (Advanced) (Misty Mountains)
  • (+1) Uruk-Slayer (Advanced) (Angmar)
  • (+1) Giant-Slayer (Advanced) (Evendim)

It gets confusing, so now it's:

  • (+1) (The Shire) Spider-Slayer (Advanced) (The Shire)
  • (+1) (Bree-land) Spider-Slayer (Advanced) (Bree-land)
  • (+1) (Lone-lands) Spider-Slayer (Advanced) (Lone-lands)
  • (+1) (North Downs) Worm-Slayer (Advanced) (North Downs)
  • (+1) (Misty Mountains) Worm-Slayer (Advanced) (Misty Mountains)
  • (+1) Uruk-Slayer (Advanced) (Angmar)
  • (+1) Giant-Slayer (Advanced) (Evendim)

Which I think is better, but it's debatable. Anyway, that's how it is now, and I'm heading to bed.

I look forward to using this page to attain my deeds. :) In the long run, I'm probably not saving very much time, but it's much less of a headache figuring everything out. And it will save other people the effort, too, I hope.

So, that's all for now. -- Let me know if you think I should make any changes.

-- Jarehan 05:42, 16 September 2007 (PDT)

Virtues by Quest/Deed

I'd like create a linkable list of how to obtain the deeds/quest for these virtues. I'm not great on the formatting, and this may be incomplete for a while, but I will do my best.

If I am violating standards, please help me correct them. But I'd like to make this page as useful as possible, and having a quick way to find deeds related to virtues would be a good start. (I would find it useful, so I assume others would, too.)

-- Jarehan 15:24, 10 September 2007 (PDT)

Virtues by Quest/Deed, pt. 2

I am gradually going through and adding in links. I'm making new "pages" (perhaps it should have been templates, but I figured it out too late) [edit: I am moving them to Template:x after all], using re-formatted information from the individual virtue pages (Idealism, Fidelity, etc.), and then linking to those pages as a template, just like how the charts are.

The first 2 1/2 sections actually have working anchors (e.g., the link will take you to the section in the regional quest page.) -- But I'm having to go and do those manually, using the <span> HTML function, which is valid under Wikipedia standards, but much more painful than being able to link to section headers.

Anyway, just wanted to keep this Discussion page updated with information about what I'm doing, lest anyone get frustrated by the disarray of its partial incompleteness. I'm picking up steam now, because I put together a script in Visual Basic to reformat the quest links.

Maybe I'll find a way to use it to help me get the anchor/spans in. I'm going to add dummy anchors for now (wiki/Place#anchor). If they don't match up with anything, it will just send you to the top of the page, and it's not all that difficult to find the quest manually, and no different than how it was before. But, once all the anchors match up, things will be easier to view, with no searching.

At this point, I'm willing to make a separate page for "Virtues by Deed," considering this is rapidly expanding the length of the page. Because it's using templates, it wouldn't be difficult to take out the template references. Or, frankly, just to revert this page to before I started, since I really haven't altered anything besides that.

But, for now, I do like it. I'm just willing to move it if somebody complains.

That's all for now, thanks. :)

-- Jarehan 04:39, 15 September 2007 (PDT)

I'm not exactly sure what you're doing on some of it, but it's looking good :) As no one else is working on deeds feel free to design it how you like (well, within reason ;D ).
I can usually get an anchor to work to pagename#heading as [[pagename#heading|linktext]] - but sometimes it fails & I can't work out why. But as you say it still takes you to the right page. (edit) Ah you're not linking to a heading, yes I guess that does require HTML then; and my preceding comment is probably irrelevant.

New Book 14 Virtue Deeds Need To Be Added!

First I wanna say that I love what you have done i have been using this page for ALL my 7 alts & have my kin come in here as well to get what info they need. To that end we all need you to do your magic again & update the page with all the new content. I found this list on another site & I hope it helps you in updating this page ... keep up the great work!!!

Carn Dum

The trolls of CD - Patience +1 - Kill trolls 60/120 - Title: The Courageous

The Angmarim of CD - Confidence +1 - Kill angmarim 100/200 - Title: The Fearsome

Enemy's Stronghold - Tolerance +1

Plans of War - Title: Foil of War - Explore CD

Champions of CD - Defeat Urro, Barashal, Helchgam - Title: Warden of the Ashen Wastes

Champions of CD - Advanced - Defeat Salvakh, Azgoth, Avalgaith, Tarlakh - Title: Master of the Ashen Wastes

Champions of CD - Final - Defeat Tarlug, Mormoz, Rodakhan, Gurthul, Mordirith - Title: Lord/Lady of the Ashen Wastes - Valour +1

The Orcs of CD - Title: The Brave - Defeat Orc-kind 100/200 - Honour +1

The Ancient Evil of CD - Title: The Fearless - Defeat Ancient Evil in CD 60/120 - Innocence +1

Urugarth

The Trolls of Uru - Kill trolls in Uru 60/120 - Title: - Valour +1

Champions of Uru - Defeat bosses in Uru - Discipline +1 - Title:

The Orcs of Uru (Not Uruks) - Kill orcs in Uru 60/120 - Title: - Honour +1

Beasts in Uru - Title:

Discover Rooms in Uru - Title: - Loyalty +1 (not positive on this one yet)

Discover Fouls in Uru (Sigils you light on fire) - Title:

Barad Gularan

Lore of the Enemy - Title: Keeper of Books - Use Gularan Compendium, tome, scroll, ledger, text, volume

Champions of BG - Title: Defender against the Terror - Defeat Afraig, Coblaith, Wisdan, Forvengwath, Mulvuire, Udunion

The dead that live - Title: The Defiant - Kill Dead in Bg 60/120 - Empathy +1

Allies of the Enemy - Title: The Determined - Kill Hillmen in Bg 30/60 - Compassion +1

The Minions of Wisdan - Title: The Steadfast - Kill Angmarim in Bg 50/100 - Charity +1

Annuminas

Invaders from Angmar - Kill angmarim in and around Annum. 120/240 - Title: The Merciful - Wisdom +1

City of Kings - Loyalty +1 - Explore 8 Locations

Markers of the Sunken City - Use 6 Plaques found on angmarim in Annum and plaques found around Annum. - Title: Sage of the Sunken City

Brutes From the North - Kill Gertheryg 40/80 - Title: The Formidable - Fortitude +1

Spirits aiding Angmar - Kill spirits in Annum. 100/200 - Title The Righteous - Tolerance +1

Leaders of the Invasion - Part 1 - Title: Defender of Annum. - Kill

Leaders of the Invasion - Part 2 - Innocence +1 - Kill bosses outside the instances after killing bosses inside


Virtue Listings - Dungeon names instead of area names

One thing in the listings that bothers me a bit is some of the Virtues which are listed as being in Ered Luin, while technically correct, would be better served as listing them in Sarnur. This would probably hold true for any other Virtues gained in any of the other major dungeon reputation areas.

--BernieTime 06:24, 29 July 2008 (PDT)

New Virtue Icons

I've added the latest virtue icons with a "1" displayed, the easiest from the "Traits" panel with any new toon. Must we now still try to harvest all the other icons displaying "2" to "10"? That's another 180 icons! -- Goingbald 22:32, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I'd say yes due to how it is currently set up. I'll see if I can't find the updated icons. *sarcastic tone* "Thank YOU Turbine.".. Rogue 22:44, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
Taking a glance led me to see that we will have to screen capture these icons. If everyone could, please do so! Rogue 22:44, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to flush soon all these 400 individual pages "<virtue> Rank x" that otherwise would need an update (they are all showing old values and/or %, and that'll also avoid capturing icons displaying "2" to "10") and only keep the "<virtue>" pages that have been updated by Uloria. I'd make them look like all these latest skirmish trait pages, any objection?
For example, based on let's say the skirmish trait page Healing Done, Charity could become Charity and the individual pages Charity Rank 1 to Charity Rank 10 would be flushed. -- Goingbald 17:00, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
Sounds good to me, keeping them on 1 page is much simpler and imo better. Rogue 19:10, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
  • 3/20 virtues done for now as a starter, will continue later. -- Goingbald 07:10, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
  • Completed, 180 icons and 200 pages gone, much less to update now for virtues! :) -- Goingbald 05:48, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Mitigation Values?

I was just wondering why the values for ranged/melee/tactical mitigation in the big table up top are given in percentages when the deed itself gives it by rating?

As I understand it the percentage value will fluctuate by level whereas the "rating" is constant so it seems like it might be more useful to put it in that way.

% Reduction = Rating / [(1190/3) * Level + Rating] is the formula I'm pretty sure. BenesHacha 10:47, 21 December 2010 (EST)

Virtues after RoI

Table of Stat Bonuses at Rank 12:


Vit Pwr Arm Fate Res Will iCPR Res Phys nCPR Tac Agi iCMR Mor nCMR Mgt Res Phys Res Tac
Innocence
















648.0 1034 162
Zeal

180









338


388.8

Discipline














36 1034 216.0

Fortitude













647.1 18 621


Valour












338 486.5 9



Justice











90.0 170 324.4




Determination










36 67.5 86





Tolerance









486 18 45.0






Mercy








480.0 292 9







Compassion







648.0 360.9 162








Charity






2070 388.8 240.6









Patience





64.8 1034 216.0










Wisdom




36 48.6 621










Confidence



2070 18 32.4












Idealism


36 1034 9













Empathy*

540 18 621














Honesty
145 324 9















Loyalty 36 73 180
















Fidelity 18 37
















486
Honour 9
















2070 292
  • note: Empathy values extrapolated from existing values and known modifications.

Table suggestion

What about putting all resistances in the same column? Not as pretty though :)


Vit Pwr Arm Fate Resist Will ICPR Phys NCPR Tac Agi ICMR Mor NCMR Mgt
Innocence



+89
+1034


+56
+648

+14
+162






Zeal

+15
+180




+34.0
+388.8




+47
+338



Discipline



+89
+1034


+19
+216






+3
+36

Fortitude



+52
+621








+69.0
+647.1
+2
+18
Valour











+47
+338
+51.8
+486.5
+1
+9
Justice










+7.5
+90.0
+23
+170
+34.5
+324.4

Determination









+3
+36
+4.5
+67.5
+12
+86


Tolerance








+41
+486
+2
+18
+3
+45



Mercy







+67.5
+480.0
+24
+292
+1
+9




Compassion






+56
+648
+50.6
+360.9
+14
+162





Charity



+173
+2070


+34.0
+388.8
+33.8
+240.6






Patience



+89
+1034

+5.4
+64.8
+19
+216







Wisdom



+52
+621
+3
+36
+4.1
+48.6








Confidence



+173
+2070
+2
+18
+2.7
+32.4








Idealism


+3
+36
+89
+1034
+1
+9









Empathy

+45
+540
+2
+18
+52
+621










Honesty
+20
+145
+27
+324
+1
+9











Loyalty +3
+36
+10
+73
+15
+180












Fidelity +2
+18
+5
+37











+41
+486

Honour +1
+9



+173
+2070




+24
+292





--Wicked Mouse 03:24 13 Febuary 2012 (CET)

A good first try, indeed. I understand it, it is compact and clear. Perhaps display only the max value as displaying both min/max is a bit confusing (people will go to the page for that virtue when they want more info). Now I step back and wait for the better skilled veterans to chime in and comment.
Zimoon (talk) 02:19, 13 February 2012 (EST)
Yeah, I just copied the table on the front page :) Below a version with only max values.
--Wicked Mouse 12:08 PM 16 Febuary 2012 (CET)

Vit Pwr Arm Fate Resist Will ICPR Phys NCPR Tac Agi ICMR Mor NCMR Mgt
Innocence



+1034

+648
+162





Zeal

+180



+388.8



+338


Discipline



+1034

+216





+36
Fortitude



+621







+647.1 +18
Valour











+338 +486.5 +9
Justice










+90.0 +170 +324.4
Determination









+36 +67.5 +86

Tolerance








+486 +18 +45


Mercy







+480.0 +292 +9



Compassion






+648 +360.9 +162




Charity



+2070

+388.8 +240.6





Patience



+1034
+64.8 +216






Wisdom



+621 +36 +48.6







Confidence



+2070 +18 +32.4







Idealism


+36 +1034 +9








Empathy

+540 +18 +621









Honesty
+145 +324 +9










Loyalty +36 +73 +180











Fidelity +18 +37










+486
Honour +9


+2070



+292




I like this once. Now I notice the table at the front page and that it is using double values. But having both min/max values seldom helps the reader, and usually these numbers begin to be really interesting in the higher ranges. I suggest you use your nice table at the front page, but you can link to a table with both min/max which you have at this talk page. Topmost in that case and clearly label it "table with current values for both min and max" or something that makes it not look like "talk" :)
Zimoon (talk) 10:29, 16 February 2012 (EST)

If anyone's interested, I maintain a spreadsheet of virtue-giving deeds. If you search "Deed tracker" on the lotro forums you should find it. It does require excel though.

I'm on holiday right now, but I'll compare this excellent site to my spreadsheet when I get back. I kno for a fact my virtues are all correct, but I also know my modifier values for traits are only estimates since Great River.

User:Grey Area

Trait Values

Hey Jarehan

I had a look at your trait values and compared them to those on my spreadsheet. They look almost identical to mine and I just thought I'd ask...did you do what I did and just estimate the level 13 values as being about half way between 12 and 14?

It's in no way a criticism...since Great River there's been no way of seeing the actual values of traits until you actually have that level on a toon. I just want to know if they are any more accurate than mine.

--Grey Area (talk) 15:16, 10 May 2012 (EDT)

Virtues at level 15

Main page implies that the race traits can increase a virtue to 15. I've briefly tested, and this seems to be false. An equipped virtue at lvl 14 will not go to 15 when using the class trait.

~Oneru

Could be that when they raised the limit to 14, they also made it a hard cap that you can't pass with the racial traits. Thanks for testing! If others can confirm then this should definitely be updated here. Sethladan 16:19, 16 May 2012 (EDT)
Effective virtues were raised to 14 with Update_6:_Shores_of_the_Great_River_-_March_12,_2012#Deeds_.26_Virtues. Someplace one of the devs commented on the fact that, in fact Virtues are no longer capped. I have a 75 with several virtues at 14(15) and 14(16). The 14 represents the "applied" virtue number. The (xx) number the number you have acquired. It is hoped that with RoR the actual cap will raise to 16 or 18, and folks keep asking for an additional virtue slot(s) as well. I don't know about the racial/class boosts, or the benefits from the "Store bumpers" (Zeal is currently on sale, claims to add +1 to Zeal). I just checked and I am not offered virtue boosts for any trait I have at 14.
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC (talk) 21:53, 6 July 2012 (EDT)

Some corrections Sept 17 2012

First thanks for all your great work.

I was using your page to fill in some deeds in preparation for RoR and with the help of a few friends(thanks Verg and Helen) noticed a few discrepancies.

Cliffs of Zirakzigil under Moria Upper Levels should be 2 confidence

Nameless Slayer For Patience is in Dark Delvings, Might want to note that as it is same name as the one in Moria.

Hero of Upper Levels gives Innocence not Charity.

Adventurer in upper levels gives Charity and Innocence not Charity and Compassion.

Great River you are missing Shade-Slayer Advanced for Honesty.

Great River you are missing Titan SLayer Advanced for Patience.


Again great work which I Appreciate and want to help make better.

Also. I understand that the virtues are in order on the page based on the chart you have at the top. However it makes it rather cumbersome to sort through. Any chance you could put them in order alphabetically(except maybe Innocence), Which is of course out of order in the games virtue interface.

Thanks Belegval(Silverload)

/bow —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Belegval (Contribs • Message) at 18 September 2012.

Character stats vs Virtues

Getting sidetracked once again...:) I have to continue "hunting," but it appears that one of two things is true... Virtues modify more stats than exist OR we have other stats that are not defined.

I'm suspecting that much of what I'm seeing are artifacts of the changes that have been made both in actual game-play and in nomenclature over the past few Updates. (And, I suspect with the coming additional class changes we may see more.)

I've added a bunch of "Game Terms" I've found missing as I've moved along here. And need to revisit that area to continue with the idea of moving the "gory details" off to "detail" pages. These couple of sets of pages seem to intertwine fairly extensively.

The end result of this is likely that Virtues needs to be changed/updated...

The complaint I have about the primary table here is ... it is incredibly confusing. It looks pretty, what with that yellow diagonal, but lacking any kind of consistent organization of the virtues -- either alphabetical (which I prefer) or matching the sequence on the Virtue "ring" of the Character's "Traits" panel, it is difficult to find the entries one is looking for. And the abbreviations used similarly so. I'm presently investigating if they are all still valid.

Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk
Which stats don't seem to exist? Do you mean in-game, or in the wiki? If you mean the wiki - yeah, think we just don't have every page when it comes to character stats that we should have.
As for the primary table - we used to have one that could be sorted by whichever item you wanted. We got rid of it about a year ago, though I still have an old version at User:Kadi/SandboxVirtueTable that I was originally going to try to make look better. Perhaps an altered version could be made, with the yellow diagonal still there, but able to be sorted?
Kadi (talk) 22:33, 14 March 2013 (EDT)

ARGH!! in case you hadn't noticed, I've gotten side-tracked by Titles! User:Magill/Projects/Titles-update

  • The twitter dev chat implies an interesting "plan" (i.e. changes) for virtues and stats...
Q29: Nyrion – Any plans to change the virtue system? Slayer deeds in particular?
A29: Matt "Hoarsedev" Zimmitti
We’re considering changes to slayer deeds to get them to fit in with future class changed.They may no longer be directly tied to specific skills, but rather, give you progression you can choose.
Q32: MrWarg - Can we have more details about the class revamp please, specifically the implementation of skill trees?
A32: Matt "Hoarsedev" Zimmitti
Three trees per class. Some degree of blending at a higher cost than sticking with a pure build. Bonuses granted based on an early-level specialization choice that grows as points are spent. You can have multiple specs. You can respec.
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 16:34, 22 March 2013 (EDT)

An interesting "blue-name reply" in the discussion thread... from Evan "Verizal" Graziano - Associate Systems Designer (Classes, Items, Mounted Combat)

To clarify a bit more on this:
When the changes first went in, Fate's contribution to ICPR was so high mainly to account for the fact that I was worried that classes might not be able to obtain as much Fate from gear as I would have liked. As it turns out, we were able to get in a bit more Fate gear than planned which, when combined with a multitude of +Max Power, easily left many classes without power issues. Due to such a high ICPR contribution, however, I found that I was having to scale back a bit more than I would have liked on skills that increased ICPR and Fate, almost placing Fate on its own level, rather than in-line with the other four primary stats.
With the changes that you will be seeing, yes Fate will see a decreased ICPR contribution, but I have also further lowered skill costs to make up for it. For those of you that have been spending time building up Fate, it will certainly not be going to waste, as all adjustments have been made to continue to hit the goals that we originally set forth. Given some of the newer gear for U10, classes should find that they are able to hit 400+ Fate rather easily, which is the intent going forward. With that said, we are still continuing to balance these changes and will certainly be addressing any classes that still appear to be having issues
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 17:48, 22 March 2013 (EDT)

{{Virtue Cap}} parameter (template) created to ease future updating

I have created a new Template {{Virtue Cap}} which can be used in pages which reference this number, which changes periodically.
Accordingly, I have updated all of the virtue pages.
The Current {{Virtue Cap}} is set to 19.
  • There are now three (3) parameters which should be changed at each release:
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 18:49, 30 January 2015 (UTC)