Talk:Character Stats

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Clean-up

From what I can see, many character stats used to have their own pages, but were then moved as redirects to here. I think the original concept is much better. If someone wants to know about "Agility", let them know about Agility, and give them a link to character stats if they want to know about other stats as well. If someone wants to know about Character Stats, show them a list of all the stats, as seen here, with the information being called from the individual pages (ie {{:Agility}}) etc.. Unless anyone has objections, I plan to go ahead with the modifications and create seperate pages for each character stat, each one categorized under "Game Terms". --Fedaykin 06:44, 18 February 2008 (PST)

you're right and be sure to include some things that community found out about various stats and how they affect other stats ;) --Xander 08:17, 18 February 2008 (PST)
I agree as well. Usually it is easier to update a more narrow article, on say Agility, than a larger has-it-all article. As always time is a constraint and we are humans ;) But if anybody has the time then several smaller articles and onlyinlude sections is the way... ;) --Zimoon (talk) 19:55, 8 October 2011 (EDT)


Ranged Parry

I recently tested it out, and noticed that you can actually parry ranged attacks. Not sure if the ranged chance to parry is somewhat lower than melee chance, but I doubt it. Going to update the description. --Fedaykin 16:13, 19 August 2007 (PDT)

Fate in-combat power regen

The two equations (with square roots) are inconsistent. I don't know which one is correct, but if it's the first, then the second (showing how much of an increase the next point makes) should be (obviously): 30*[sqrt(Fate+1) - sqrt(Fate)] , which doesn't simplify. --Zorgkang (talk) 12:41, 17 September 2011 (EDT)

You're right. The first equation is correct as far as I know. I remember wondering about the second one when I was doing stuff on this page before, but not I look at it, it isn't completely accurate. I did some tests in excel there, and you don't get exactly the same numbers, but at higher levels of fate, it gives pretty much the same value (up to about 3/4 decimal places). At very low fate, there's a bigger different between the two. Will leave the equation in, but mention that it only gives a rough indication of how much ICPR the next point of fate will give. Amphoras (talkTalk to me!) 15:05, 17 September 2011 (EDT)

Resistance Rating in ROI

Resistance ratings have now been combined into a single rating. Vitality and will each contribute two points of resist per point of vit/will. The chart at the end ('stat summary') shows the 3-for-1 relationship betweent vit/will and morale/power, but not the 2-for-1 relationship between these and resistance. (Posting in talk instead of making the change myself because I'm new and don't know the ropes yet.)--Nevakild (talk) 12:16, 20 October 2011 (EDT)

Consolidated, see further below Raffazahn 16:33, 19 September 2012 (GMT+1)

Revisiting the Whole Thing

Regarding "This whole thing probably needs revisiting".
I begun reading this page last weekend, slowly, on my mobile as a good-night tale ;)
And I agree with Seth's comment, this page "needs revisiting" ... read the text and you will find redundancies all the way. I have not looked into why that is, if it is from local texts plus transclusions, section by section, or what. Either way, almost all sections are like "this X does A, B, C, and D, also K, L, M, and N" but then all of that is repeated in dotted list form.

Tentatively each section should have a much much leaner text that pin-points only the most important asset(s) of that stat, but no more than those that really shine. The dotted list will display the numerical details of the most important stat(s), but also show the less important items. Perhaps not even all details for the least important items but just enumerate them at one line, just to reduce the clutter somewhat. This would reduce repeated texts a lot, and repeated texts add nothing but distraction, hence it is counter-productive ... except it makes me fall asleep.

The previous paragraph, or perhaps having texts with slightly more flesh on the bones, but omitting most of the dotted items each stat, assuming that people will follow the "more info links" to the individual pages of each stat if they are interested. Either of the two styles is valuable as neither of them would include any less valuable information.

That said, except for the redundancies this page is great already. It gives a quick overview of stats, readers can compare the important parts at a glance not having to open several pages and tab between those to compare. However, I guess this is not highest priority, but still this one of the more visited pages with +500k page-loads, so the better it shines the better for Lotro-wiki.
-- Zimoon (talk) 07:52, 2 September 2012 (EDT)

Quick comment here as I'm working from a mobile. I was mostly thinking that there have been a few changes to starts in the updates since/with ROI that might not have been captured here. I generally don't pay close attention to those numbers nor have I compared this page to the game, but I vaguely recall that stats should affect things differently depending on your class now. This in addition to Zimoon's stylistic suggestions above while recognizing the massive progress that was made with this page and the attendant links and redirects. By revisited, I meant primarily a dusting and double-checking. :) Sethladan 15:44, 2 September 2012 (EDT)
I see some of it has been updated with the stat changes: the Captain's Might going towards Outgoing Healing instead of Will, for instance. But I'm sure it could still use some fixing-up. I think the Resistances have been combined into one stat, although certain items or effects still target one of the four types (if I recall correctly...) Each class also has a "Very Important" stat and a couple "Important" (may or may not be the right terms, since I'm not in the game) - it might be worthwhile to add a small paragraph right under Main Attributes to explain that. One of the most common questions I used to see was "Which stats should I focus on as a <class>?" Somebody coming here with that question should be able to find the answer, or at least the information clearly presented to help them figure it out for themselves.
I have consolidated the Resistances according to the ROI development Diary from Turbine and the formula given above. Raffazahn 16:13, 19 September 2012 (GMT+1)
There are more stats to consolidate:
1. Common, Fire, Lightning, Frost, Acid and Shadow Mitigation to one stat Tactical Mitigation; but I do not know the formula. The formula for Common Mitigation as listed now (as I am writing this) is different from the 4 others. So, what is the new common formula for the consolidated stat Tactical Mitigation?
2. Melee, ranged and tactical critical hit ratings (on items) to one stat Critical Hit Rating
3a. I am not sure about: Melee Defence, Ranged Defence, Tactical Defence. Have they also been consolidated? Seems logical; did not double-check, yet.
3b. Same for Critical Melee, Ranged, Tactical Defence?
Raffazahn 16:13, 19 September 2012 (GMT+1)
Found this links with an overview of the combat stat changes (please add "h" in front of the "ttp:", the dang CATCHPA would not accept my cat detection skills (-; ): ttp://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?424066-Combat-stat-changes-on-Isengard-release.-Mitigation-and-Offence.
I think the reason for the redundancies in text and then bullets is that the text gives the written-out definitions of those main stats, and then the bullets offer extra explanation of what it actually does, or how it applies. For the main attributes the text does come out pretty much redundant, and the hover-text is now different for different classes anyway, so there's not really an official definition sentence any more. I'd vote for cutting the sentences in favor of the bullet format, for those major stats that have many effects. In the damage reduction sections the bullets provide the formula while the text explains what it does - if we simplify the page's format, we need to make sure not to lose information. (Unless of course it's old, outdated information, and then it should be lost posthaste!) I peeked at the Lorebook's stats page Character Stats, and though it's not up to date, it keeps each stat to either paragraph or bullet style, and I do think it's easier to read. -- Elinnea (talk) 19:45, 2 September 2012 (EDT)
I assumed that the full text will be found at each individual page of a stat, right? And this is the splendid summary page? -- Zimoon (talk) 19:54, 2 September 2012 (EDT)
Hm, but most of the stats don't have their own individual page. Most just redirect to this page. Category:Character Stats is very sparse. It's a gap in the wiki, and filling it sounds a lot more labor-intensive to me, than expanding and updating the information on this page. I guess I'm not enough of a stat hound to get enthused about such a project. ;) -- Elinnea (talk) 20:01, 2 September 2012 (EDT)

Changes coming with Update 10

There are several major stat changes coming with Update 10:

Consolidated from the Bullroarer release notes (B1-B4): (remember, These are not yet final)

Critical Rating Revision

  • Critical Rating now increases both chance to critically hit and the magnitudes of both your critical and devastating critical hits. Critical Hit chance caps or conversion rates have not been altered by this change.
  • All skills (unless otherwise stated in the skill) have a base 1.5x Critical Damage and 2.0 Devastating Critical Damage. Critical Rating now adds to those values.
  • Critical Defence's conversion rate to Critical Damage Reduction has been modified to be a counter stat to Critical Rating.
  • Critical Defence will now be available on Armour, Jewelry, and Shields for all classes.

Critical Defence for mobs

  • Signature or Greater mobs now have Critical Defence with the amount increasing based on mob type.

Critical Effect Revision

  • For effects delivered by skills: If the skill delivery is Critical or Devastating, then the applied effects will always crit; if the skill does not crit, then the applied effects will never crit.
  • Note: This change applies to instant effects, and to the initial pulse of damage-over-time effects (DoTs) and healing-over-time effects (HoTs). Subsequent pulses of DoTs and HoTs will roll for critical effect just as before.

Stat Changes

  • Fate has undergone a rather large revamp and should now provide much more noticeable effects on ICPR as players stat into it. Will and Power have also undergone noticeable changes, as Will will no longer contribute to players' power pools. Instead, players will receive an increased amount of Power at each level (50/level for non Will-users and 65/level for Will-users), and all skill costs will now be based on a percentage of this power. Each class has also undergone adjustements to their overall power consumption/restoration rates in an attempt to normalize combat longevity.
  • Agility will now provide 1 point of crit rating whereas Fate will provide 2.5
  • Will now provides 2 points of Tactical Mitigation to compensate for the loss of power contribution
  • Wardens will now derive their mastery ratings from both Might and Agility. Once U11 hits, these ratings will only be derived from Agility.
  • Champions will now receive 6 points of Parry from Might rather than 4 points of Block and 2 points of Parry

Dread on Defeat effects removed.

  • Players will no longer receive the dread effect when defeated. This applies to defeat dread only. Other forums of dead will continue to exist as before.

Other comments:

Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 16:18, 25 February 2013 (EST)

Duplicate definitions

I just noticed that the page Tactical Mitigation exists and is different from the the section: Character_Stats#Tactical_Mitigation.

Clearly the intent is/was to transclude the definition page into this general page. I have updated the individual page to include the information from the "collective" page and transcluded it into the collective page.

Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 19:58, 10 March 2013 (EDT)

Viirtually all ?? all?? of the calculations on this page are wrong.

Just comparing a couple of the numbers ... I don't find any correlation between the proposed formula and "in-game." Especially some of the more simple ones.

Does anyone have any insight on who/how to obtain updated numbers?

Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 21:26, 10 March 2013 (EDT)

I have verified a few... taking all armour/weapons off the toon (a lvl 76 Man Minstrel); no virtues -- I get the following stats:

Calculations:

  • Physical Mitigation
Physical mitigation rating = Armour + Might *2 + Vitality * 2
                    0 + 95 *2 + 59 *2 = 308 equal
  • Tactical Mitigation
Tactical Mitigation rating = Armour/5 + Vitality * 4
                    0 /5 + 59 *4 = 236  not equal (406)
  • Resistance
Resist rating = ( Will + Vitality ) * 2
                    (85  + 59)*2 = 204 Not Equal (288)
  • Evade
Evade rating = Agility * 2
                    57 * 2 = 114  Not equal     (However, 57 * 4 = 228 Equal)

Interestingly Equipping the Virtue "Loyalty" increases Armour to 216, instead of the 180 in the tool tip. Guess I'll bug it and hope they update the tool-tip :)

Re: Loyalty, are you accounting for armour gains from the Vitality boost? Sethladan 01:37, 11 March 2013 (EDT)
Why I shouldn't edit when I'm tired: I imagine Vitality doesn't affect armour rating. Sorry to be a pest. :-P Sethladan 01:38, 11 March 2013 (EDT)

Correct. According to the current in-game tool-tip, Vitality (for a Minstrel), Contributes points to

Maximum Morale
Physical mitigation
tactical Mitigation
Resistance Rating
Non-Combat Morale Regen
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 12:03, 11 March 2013 (EDT)
For Tact Mit, you were missing the new calculations of Will*2. If you add that in there, you get 236 + 170 = 406, exactly what you want. There does seem to be a minor rounding/display error somewhere - on my lowbie Warden, I should have had 4 more Tact Mit than I did, tied directly to how much vitality I had. I updated the Tact Mit page, as well as the power section (that's completely based on level now).
Also, the entire section about Might/Agil/etc. needs to be reworked, still - we still have info about Will affecting Tactical Mastery, for instance, which is wrong for all non-Will based classes. Was it the Rise of Isengard update that made all classes have only one main stat? We should look through the release notes for that, to try and help update this page. Of course, that doesn't help for all the *later* updates. The work here seems neverending!  :)
Kadi (talk) 08:09, 12 March 2013 (EDT)
Finding all of the parts "hidden" in the release notes is definitely a chore!!! Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 18:02, 12 March 2013 (EDT)

Will's contribution to power:

From Update 10 Release notes:

  • Power Pools have been adjusted.
Non-Will users will gain 50 points of power per level whereas Will users will receive 65.

This appears to be absolute for the characters I've checked (sans armour and virtues).

Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 18:00, 12 March 2013 (EDT)

Revised table formats for Starting Stats

I have new table layouts (with no values) at : User:Magill/Sandbox-scratch#test_table

They reflect the current in-game character panel's layout. Now we just need to generate new toons to populate it with :) (Don't forget -- values should reflect no virtues and no armour)

Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 18:07, 12 March 2013 (EDT)

Phew... all done. All lvl 1 stats (Starting Stats) are updated as of Update 10.

Based on the starting stats, there is no relationship with any of these formlas

Parry rating = Might + Agility
Block seems to be directly related to the Shield values as there is no value without one equipped
Evade rating = Agility * 2

Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 22:30, 12 March 2013 (EDT)

How much info?

How much info do we want on each section? For instance, for Vitality, we have listed the Virtues that increase it. Should we add that to the other stats? Should we just link the Virtues page and figure they can find it on their own? Should we link the page for equipment and mention a lot of gear affects this stat?

Also, Agility, Might, Will, and Fate are updated to the best of my ability. I'm not sure of the calculation for Fate's In-Combat Power Regeneration, so there's a ? there. After we finish the rest of the page, we should probably remove the "As of Update 10, 6 March 2013:" notes on top of each section. I'm really excited we're fixing up this page, though - it's needed an update for quite a while!  :)

Kadi (talk) 07:12, 13 March 2013 (EDT)

I haven't quite figured out the pattern here (i.e. haven't really looked in depth, over time), but I was considering that some of the stats seem to have their own pages, and some do not. Tactical Mitigation is the first one I discovered as I was looking for some specific information. But then noticed that Mitigation also has its own page, that has virtually zero information on it... and some of it overlaps. Other stats, like Will are a redirect to the Will entry on the Character Stats page. Looking at dates on the pages Tactical Mitigation is new, but Mitigation is ancient.
Some statements like: "Will also increases the damage you do with a weapon or your skills, and increases your Outgoing Healing," are Classic "True Statements!" However, a more accurate statement would be "Will increases Tactical Mastery which increases Outgoing Healing." (Assuming, of course, that the in-game tool-tips are accurate, as the tool-tip for Will does not mention Healing at all, only the Tactical Mastery tool-tip.)
I've never been a big "stats" player, so I don't really have a good feel for what information folks are looking for, let alone the novice vs raider vs casual player. I suppose that we really should somehow blend in comments about all of the various ways in which the stats can be modified along with the strict mathematical definitions of the stats. Other statements, such as: "Armour provides strong damage reduction against physical (common, sources and some damage reduction against tactical sources. See the Armour article for more details," are fine as far as they go -- which isn't very far!!! Note that "Common redirects back to Character Stats (where it is neither defined nor used, and Armour has zero details on it. and where by the way, while the "." apparently means you get this proficiency when your character is created (i.e. "Starting proficiencies") there is no indication what the numbers in that table mean!) (Note that nomenclature is used in other places as well, but I haven't found it defined yet.)
Maybe we can get RTC or Sethladan to comment. I have a bad habit of "erring on the side of too much" rather than too little information.
As for Fate, I suspect it is still very much in flux. I know from the forums it is neither well understood nor "appreciated" yet.
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 13:28, 13 March 2013 (EDT)
I've been vaguely following the progress on this page, and echo Kadi's excitement at all the work being done (while claiming none of the credit as you guys have been awesome about researching and updating). Was meaning to add a suggestion, and then I saw my name and figured now I have no choice. :)
Regarding "how much?" I would submit that a good way to deal with this might be to include a brief description of each stat without going into details on per-class differences, formulas, or history, and then link out to a separate page for all the nitty-gritty. This obviously runs the very real risk of bringing us right back to the tangled mess where we started (and it was even worse before Amphoras did a lot of work with catching things up - post-Mirkwood, I think?) so it's not a suggestion I make lightly. I would recommend one of two approaches with this:
  1. Have a very short, generic, dependable sentence or two about each stat, then follow it up with "for more information, see [[soandso]]". By dependable, I mean a description that is unlikely to suddenly become obsolete with the next twitching of the stats, such as "Will represents your character's drive and force of personality, affecting the potency of many offensive and healing skills and your defenses against non-physical assaults." This is almost the same as what's already in place on the page, but avoids pointing out specific other metrics while still giving enough information that a first-time visitor to this page - which is probably someone's first stop on looking into character statistics - an idea of what's going on. By keeping it brief and general on this page, we also avoid the issue of duplicated (and eventually out-of-sync) info on other pages.
  2. Follow the model of e.g. Eriador, which simply transcludes in all the pertinent more-specific pages. I suspect this is what Magill was starting to work towards when he transcluded Tactical Mitigation over to this page, but there's a very important difference here: Instead of wholesale transclusion, each of the pages Eriador links to (except for some of the newer ones which need to be attended to) has a brief header paragraph enclosed in <onlyinclude> so that only that section is copied over while the rest of the page remains at its original location for additional perusing and more in-depth reading. It can be very easy to work with and slick-looking when properly set up, but does require a little attentiveness in putting together and maintaining.
In both cases, though, I'm in favor of moving (returning?) to the concept of separate pages for going in-depth on each stat - as long as this can be done consistently, cleanly, and with authority (so information doesn't start creeping onto this page again). This has its dangers as I mentioned above, but I think it will make this particular page easier to manage while allowing editors to more fully expand on each stat - as Magill put it, "somehow blend in comments about all of the various ways in which the stats can be modified along with the strict mathematical definitions of the stats." I keep seeing rumblings in the Dev Diaries of further, more sweeping character class revamps on the horizon, so either way it sounds like now's a fantastic time to bang out a system of some fashion, heh.
As a corollary to this effort, a lot of the pages (Magill mentioned a few) that are sort of hanging around not helping much should probably be tracked down, looked at, and redirected, merged, or deleted as appropriate - Mitigation is one, I think? Sethladan 15:32, 13 March 2013 (EDT)
I think the idea of having separate pages for each stat really is the best idea! I was surprised when I first started looking at this page that we didn't have it set up that way. And I didn't even think of the onlyinclude option for a 'starter' paragraph - that sounds perfect for what we want, so that it only needs to be changed one place when the inevitable dev changes come. Also, I personally think that we should link the Virtues on the stats page, as that's valuable info to have - but putting them in here would have made the whole page incredibly long and difficult to navigate, so I didn't want to do that originally.
My one disagreement would be with "include a brief description of each stat without going into details on per-class differences" - I think that the per-class differences are important enough they should be in that first paragraph. If I was coming here for info, I'd want to see "Vitality affects your Morale" and for me as a mini, "Will affects your melee damage" - which is only true for a few classes. So for Will specifically, I would think the starter paragraph we have now would be pretty decent with a couple tweaks (like possibly rewording it so 'increases' doesn't show up so much!):
"Will increases your ability to defend against non-physical damage sources and increases your Resistance to Disease, Fear, Poison, and Wound effects. For Lore-masters, Minstrels, and Runekeepers, Will also increases your Physical Mastery which increases the damage you do with a weapon and increases your Tactical Mastery, which increases both the damage you do with your skills and your Outgoing Healing. For Burglars, Champions, Guardians, and Hunters, Will mildly increases your Tactical Mastery which increases your Outgoing Healing."
And then all the additional info is outside the include tags. We could possibly combine the sentences about Tactical Mastery to say just mention the two classes excluded - that's make a more compact paragraph. Perhaps Will was a bad example, it's probably the most complicated when it comes to classes that are affected by it!
Another option would be to leave out any of the descriptions of what each term in the description does, and have people follow the links to learn more. With that, you'd have:
"Will increases your Tactical Mitigation and your Resistances. For all classes except Captains and Wardens, Will increases your Tactical Mastery. For Lore-masters, Minstrels, and Runekeepers, Will also increases your Physical Mastery."
That's a lot shorter and in some ways smoother - but requires quite a bit more linking and searching for the person reading! But if each of those links had decent info at the top of the page (or we linked to the short description on the Character Stats page), it wouldn't be such a huge deal.
Related to that, Outgoing Healing is something that's a bit weird - it's pretty important, and is mentioned in the flavor text of Will (or Might/Agility for Captains/Wardens) when you hover over it in game. But as Magill says, it's not directly related to Will - it goes through Tactical Mastery instead. I think it's important enough it should be included in Will/Might/Agility descriptions, but I'm not the only one editing.  ;)
(Also, the numbers in the Armour Proficiencies table are the levels you can purchase that proficiency. You're right, it should actually say that at the bottom of the table - I would guess it originally did somewhere, and got lost over time and edits!)
Kadi (talk) 18:13, 13 March 2013 (EDT)
Gads.... what a literal can of worms... simple changes -- tracking stuff all over the bloody place!!! Editing Morale and Power... to Game Terms to Virtues, to individual virtues, to changing "Out-of-Combat" to "non-Combat" phew.
  • Some extensive mods/additions to Game Terms so they can be referenced.
  • Changed a bunch of usages for Res and Rez to Revive
  • Changed Out-of-Combat Power/Moral references to be "non-Combat" to match current in-game usage. (NCPR instead of OOCPR, etc.)
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 15:55, 14 March 2013 (EDT)
I'm going to toss a link in here, to a forum post that has some great info about the secondary stats (mitigations & resistances). Much more info than what we currently have, and will be a good starting place for some of the updates, imo.
Kadi (talk) 04:26, 27 March 2013 (EDT)
LoL ... that thread references us as "knowledgable!" (... something about in the kingdom of the blind, the one eyed man is king!) :)
Very interesting reading ... will take me, at least, several readings to make sense of it. Thanks for the pointer.
Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 21:17, 27 March 2013 (EDT)

Character stats vs Virtues

Getting sidetracked once again...:) I have to continue "hunting," but it appears that one of two things is true... Virtues modify more stats than exist OR we have other stats that are not defined.

I'm suspecting that much of what I'm seeing are artifacts of the changes that have been made both in actual game-play and in nomenclature over the past few Updates. (And, I suspect with the coming additional class changes we may see more.)

I've added a bunch of "Game Terms" I've found missing as I've moved along here. And need to revisit that area to continue with the idea of moving the "gory details" off to "detail" pages. These couple of sets of pages seem to intertwine fairly extensively.

The end result of this is likely that Virtues needs to be changed/updated... so I'll shift the rest of this comment over to there (Talk:Virtues)

Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 19:27, 14 March 2013 (EDT)

Stat caps

I've updated, extended and put some more structure in this section (I hope). The styling of the table isn't the most fitting. Feel free to change it. :) --Gisel Avaleazar (talk) 08:33, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Understanding in-game basic stats display

While working on other things I notieced that certain stats are apparently listied with value and calculation. I don't know if this is new, I'm looking at this for the firs time in 18.2.x, but never noticed it before.

I have a new beorning - level 6 (just out of the intro) with nothing equipped - no armour, virtues, etc. I see:

Morale, Wrath, Armour - same as others, nothing exciting.

Might 36 (21 +15)
Agility 13
Vitality 30 (15 +15)
Will 18
Fate 17 (24 -17)

I'm guessing that these are the basic racial starting "bonus" numbers. -- or the numbers once one is out of the introduction.

Wm Magill - Valamar - OTG/OTC - talk 18:47, 10 September 2016 (UTC)