Category talk:Creature types

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Moved from the corner

Overhaul Phase 1 Complete...

Ok. As of right now, I have inserted the new categories and subcategories into the creature type tree.

Right now, my main question is this: Since a category can have actual page content, is there any reason why we should NOT redirect pages such as "Beasts" to the page "Category:Beasts"? Right now, having the indiviual pages causes multiple problems:

  • Everything is in here twice.
  • Some of the duplicates don't match. (eg the beasts page does not match the list on the category:beasts page and would have to be perpetually manually updated.)
  • The pages are cross-linked in weird ways.

So, if I could take the content from the pages, and put them on the category pages, then redirect the original pages to the category pages... that would remove the need to have the manual tree at the bottom of the page, it would lessen the chances of having things cross-linked improperly...

Here's an example: The bears page currently has a manually-made, linked list of kinds of bears. Say I go into category:bears, make sure the proper subcategories are in there (thus you have the linked list). I also put a little blurb in there about what a bear is. Then, in each of the subcategories (hill-bear, barkshredder, etc), we put a little blurb about that TYPE of bear, being sure to link the page Hill-bear to the hill-bear category, link the barkshredder page to the barkshredder category, etc. Then the individual bears inside each category(barkshredder mother, agitated barkshredder) have their little creature templates with all the details, pictures, etc. Obviously, those wouldn't redirect anywhere because they are an end-page, not a category. Thus, there wouldn't be any problem with the other categories (creature_locations and creature_difficulty)

There could be a catch, but right now, the only objection I'm seeing is that the creature_types area would be a little differently organized from the rest of the site.

That, and the Creatures page would need to be updated and changed a little, but that would be true no matter what. :)

Let me know, guys. --Adelas 21:10, 5 November 2007 (PST) Oh, and PS - If someone could re-point me to directions on merging pages [if I can even do that], and redirecting pages, I would greatly appreciate it!

As usual, I can't provide much help concerning creatures. Concerning the PS though - make sure the page is blank, then edit in #REDIRECT [[Destination Pagename]] to do a redirect. In the preview it won't show up properly, you've got to save the page to see for yourself if it worked or not. If it did, there will be an arrow pointing to the link to the destination page. Merging pages isn't really that clean and simple. There is no "merge" option on wiki software that I know of, and the move option available to ninjas and sysops can only move pages to new pages that are blank or don't exist. The best way to do what you're talking about (with Bears, I believe?) would be to cut the contents of the page you want to merge into the other, then manually organize it so it functions properly. After that, go back to the page that is now blank and set it to redirect to the merged page. --Fedaykin 21:37, 5 November 2007 (PST)
I think go with using the category pages for basic information. And yes ,lose the manual categories at the bottom of pages - that is what wiki categories are for after all!
(On the subject of using category pages: I started out doing so for quest lists eg Category:The Shire Quests. This got way to long to be on the same page so the content was moved to Category:The Shire Quest Chains with a pointer on the category page. on the other hand short ones like Category:Book 1 Quests have stayed on the category page, because, well it works ok like that.
I believe anyone can move a page, but no we don't gain any option (that I know about) for merging - just cut&paste. You can't move a category page to a normal one though, and I guess that works the other way too.
DancesInTrees 00:41, 6 November 2007 (PST)
I am so glad that this is working so smoothly and that we're on the same page (no pun intended) about the category pages. I have other commitments this week but I plan to start the revamp this weekend. --Adelas 17:22, 6 November 2007 (PST)

Fixing Categories... help!!!

...blah blah blah... in which I describe the need to fix the Creature_types category. --Adelas 09:24, 1 November 2007 (PDT)

In no particular order
  • Critter does have a very specific meaning in LotRO - it covers the level 1 things with 2 morale (& Elves can't kill them). (May also covers the new LM fluff pets.)
  • Speico spent a lot of time setting the creatures stuff up. IIRC s/he doesn't have English as a native language, which explains the occasional odd spelling - feel free to correct wherever you see those :D . Yes, there are some oddities in the way it has been set up; realistically if you want to take it on you need to be prepared to devote a reasonable amount of time to it... (S/he seems to have moved on.)
  • Frogs and Deer in Tal Bruinen are also hostile :p
  • Moving pages - use the "move" tab ^ - it will leave a redirect on the old page. I think you can do the same with Categories. (That's why Foxs didn't rename.)
  • I'm gonna have to dig through the category tree to understand what's going on there, not got time right now.
  • Hostility - in game I see it as aggressive / non-aggressive / threatening (ie run past fast & they won't bother) - but also aggro radius is relavent I think - I'm not sure where I'm going with this...
DancesInTrees 10:23, 1 November 2007 (PDT)
blah blah blah in which I respond to the above posts with further suggestions and questions
--Adelas 10:33, 1 November 2007 (PDT)

Categories are now as you suggest (I think). Looks like you found the Special:CategoryTree to view categories rather sooner than I did. Were you thinking of setting up categories for each creature type such as the "Barghast" that already exists? Then deer would come under, erm, category:deer, and the individual critter deer would also have the category:critter tag.

It would be easy to add separate categories based on aggressiveness that would be applied separately to the species categories, if you wanted to go ahead with that too. DancesInTrees 01:42, 2 November 2007 (PDT)

I think I came up with a solution for the critter thing - why not add that as a category under "Creature Difficulty". So you'll have Elite, Nemesis, etc, on down to Normal and then Critter. Comments?
blah blah blah again in which i make further suggestions on the changes, mostly silly ones
--Adelas 07:09, 2 November 2007 (PDT)
I like your solution for critters :) & I've gone ahead and moved it. I'm not happy with the idea of moving Swarm though, it really does belong in the difficulty level list; and it can apply to all sorts of creature types - often insects & birds but also those pesky frogs in Tal Bruinen (again!) and the goblin thingies in Evendim.
Formatting ... nothing springs to mind but I'll wing you a message if anything crops up ;)
--DancesInTrees 09:22, 2 November 2007 (PDT)
Please take this right when I persist - I really am trying for accuracy and cooperation, not just being stubborn.
When I think of a swarm, I think of the aggro swarms of gnats near needlehole, the linfragl (or whatever they're called)light swarms in evendim, and so on. These can be aggro and they also come in MANY different levels. The ones in evendim are lvl 20+... I feel that this is the same as "normal" difficulty.
The Creatures page describes them as something that is EXTREMELY easy to kill - which is, of course, a relative term... unless you're talking about critters.
Is there something I'm missing? Please realize I am very sincere here, not being sarcastic (hard to tell over text)... I really wonder if there is something I've never noticed before. Thanks.
Finally, is there an appropriate place where I could upload a sample revamped category tree, in excel format, for someone(s) to look at and comment on before I start messing with stuff?
--Adelas 09:47, 2 November 2007 (PDT)
Augh, editing again, but I FINALLY realized... there are category PAGES (ie articles with nothing but lists of other articles... see the article Beasts and compare it with the category page [Beasts]. They don't match!! I would be willing to undertake this project but it would mean a Complete, Major overhaul of the entire creature system. Since I'm just a noob here, I want someone else to look at that and verify (or nix) that concept. I would not presume to make such major changes without prior approval. Adelas 10:16, 2 November 2007 (PDT)
Swarm: the "creature difficulty" is shown by the the color/style ring round them, as well as stating it under the name in the tooltip - normal is blue, swarm is green, sig is red - higer oneas are red with extras ... and I would say they are easy one on one (the swarm groups are another matter :p) I suspect its that they have low morale but I don't tend to pay attention to numbers :p . I don't like the description as it stands on the Creatures page, I preferred my old version but meh. (And no you're not being stubborn, these things need ironing out.)
Noob? nah - newb. noobs don't want to learn. And there is a heck of a lot to get your head round on a wiki. I'd done a bit before this wiki but not a lot, but I've had to learn, as the other admins drifted off elsewhere *rolleyes*
Upload (can you upload excel?) into Adelas/Sandbox (or Adelas/Creatures maybe)
*sigh* yes the categories didn't really get used there :p I suspect your best bet would be to set up the category tree first & then sort of the creature pages afterwards. As no-one is currently working on it you can do it the way you like (within reason :D ).
DancesInTrees 10:31, 2 November 2007 (PDT)
I'm still around, just not a lot of time to help out :( , but if you need a template or want me to fix categories using a bot I will try to help out. --Hinney 11:43, 2 November 2007 (PDT)
yay, thanks Hinney. I think perhaps a template update for the Creature_Info template will be in order, but first things first! :) I uploaded my idea tree into User:Adelas/Sandbox for comments. Please be sure to read the notes at the bottom. --Adelas 11:50, 2 November 2007 (PDT)
A few comments:
  • 1) The reason for "Swarm" difficulty is to allow the devs to put in more situations requiring AOE DPS... these types of mobs could be Bats, Birds, re-animated Hands, or anything else. The idea behind them is that you can defeat a single one with both hands tied behind your back, but when they come in groups of 10+ (as they usually do), you need to watch out that you don't get overwhelmed.
  • 2) Some pointers on your sandbox table. Half-0rcs is currently spelled with 0 instead of O, is this intentional? Orcs, Half-orcs, Uruks etc are all categorized as "Orc-kind" unless that's changed. Last I remembered Spiders and Insects were their own category, separate of Beasts altogether... has this changed? I also think that snow-lurkers, bog-prowlers etc. can be categorized as "Lurkers", in a sub-category of "Beasts".
  • 3) What about Snow-beasts and Hill-beasts, those excessively annoying ape-like mobs encountered far too much in Misty Mountains, and a little in Angmar? Their archetype would essentially be "Beasts", which would conflict with the category itself. --Fedaykin 13:54, 2 November 2007 (PDT)

Fixing Categories pt2 (or is it3?)

Having stumbled back on to this, I've gone through & corrected all categories to match the genus/species as given by LM inspections. I hope I've not upset anyone with removing the few old categories but as we now know exactly what categories to use, and as we were fairly close any way, it seems daft not to use the in-game categories.

On naming (as earlier) - all Snow-beasts / Angmar "beasts" / Peikko are in fact "Snow-beasts" and all the lurker/strider thingies are "Bog-lurkers" - it looks to me as though they used the name of the first of the type to be created as the species name.

DancesInTrees 02:40, 9 June 2008 (PDT)

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